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At least 172 Palestinians killed, 1,280 injured, UN says 77% are civilians

I think both sides are in the wrong, but struggle to come up with what Israel should do. Should they just accept the rocket fire from Hamas and hope that any misses by the Iron Dome(less than 90% effective) does no damage? In the long run they need to negociate with Hamas/PLO/anyone to stop the violence, but how do they stop the rocket attacks in the short run? From what I have read they are targeting the areas where rockets have been fired from. Hamas is to blame for placing the rockets in civilian population. How many rockets does Hamas have?

The 23% that died that aren't civilians, are they soldiers?(This is not saying any civilian deaths are acceptable, just wondering if Hamas has any soldiers, or how they came to the 77% number)
 
That number is old.
 
DeacMan said:
The facts are pretty clear. Hamas kidnapped and murdered three Israeli teenagers. Israel goes after Hamas members. Hamas responds by launching hundreds of rockets stating that "all Israelis are legitimate targets". That isn't some idle threat, Ph. It is an act of war. War sucks. Israel in response to all the rockets begins to launch airstrikes. A ceasefire is called for by Egypt. Israel is willing to accept. Hamas rejects and keeps on firing rockets. And now Israel will step up its own strikes.

There is no equivocation here. One side is clearly the provoker.
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In this particular flare up, the facts are not as clear as you want them to be. A non-Hamas group claimed responsibility for the murders, Hamas denied it. Israel then rounded up hundreds of Hamas members and bulldozed some houses, before the bodies were even found. Israel made no effort to work with the PA to try to find the killers cooperatively and without collective retribution. Was that a proportionate response, or a response nearly guaranteed to provoke Hamas?

DeacMan said:
War sucks. But many on this thread very much want to equivocate Israel with Hamas. And that is utter bullshit.
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I don't think this word means what you think that it means. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equivocate
 
I don't believe that Hamas should be firing rockets at Israel, but I also don't believe that Israel should have rounded up 100's of people affiliated with Hamas when another group claimed responsibility. Israel prodded the bear here which escalated the rocket attacks.
 
The always-worth-reading Conors Friedersdorf has written an excellent column regarding civilian deaths in Gaza.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/the-dangerous-logic-used-to-justify-killing-civilians/374886/

Killing civilians is wrong, no matter how often those who do it insist that the humans they killed weren't really innocent. Everyone understands this truth when the civilians being killed are one's countrymen or allies–but forget it quickly when the civilians are citizens of a country one is fighting or rooting against in war, even though the civilizational taboo against killing civilians becomes no less important.
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It may please Hamas to make use of these victims’ deaths for their own purposes, but that doesn’t absolve the Israeli government of its responsibility for causing those deaths. If Hamas benefits politically from these civilian deaths, and it seems likely that they do, it would seem obvious that Israel should not want to cause any more, and yet at each step over the last few weeks Israel’s government has responded with tactics that are guaranteed to continue killing many more non-combatants for as long as this operation continues.
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After the September 11 terrorist attacks, Osama bin Laden argued that Al Qaeda was perfectly justified in killing all those people inside the World Trade Center because they weren't really civilians–they were complicit in U.S. might and misdeeds. Didn't their taxes fund America's CIA assassinations and war planes? As every American understood perfectly well at the time, the attack that day would not have been justified even if all office workers in the Twin Towers had voted for a president and supported a military that perpetrated grave sins in the Middle East. Or even, indeed, if they were all subletting spare bedrooms to U.S. soldiers.
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what about Iranian scientists?
 
Call me a pessimist but I don't see any end to this cycle until the Palestinians eliminate Hamas from their country. That isn't going to happen anytime soon.
 
The Mangler said:
Call me a pessimist but I don't see any end to this cycle until the Palestinians eliminate Hamas from their country. That isn't going to happen anytime soon.
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Not sure if you've been keeping up with this thread, but it has already been addressed how Hamas tried to step down and hand over power to the PLO but this agreement was sabotaged by Israel. Also it has been addressed how Israel and the outside world has given the Palestinians zero incentives to turn away from Hamas. But otherwise, sweet hot-take.

The only reason I sass is because I think this post epitomizes many Americans.
 
P4nthers11 said:
Not sure if you've been keeping up with this thread, but it has already been addressed how Hamas tried to step down and hand over power to the PLO but this agreement was sabotaged by Israel. Also it has been addressed how Israel and the outside world has given the Palestinians zero incentives to turn away from Hamas. But otherwise, sweet hot-take.

The only reason I sass is because I think this post epitomizes many Americans.
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This. America is one big hot take. #Americahottake
 
P4nthers11 said:
Not sure if you've been keeping up with this thread, but it has already been addressed how Hamas tried to step down and hand over power to the PLO but this agreement was sabotaged by Israel. Also it has been addressed how Israel and the outside world has given the Palestinians zero incentives to turn away from Hamas. But otherwise, sweet hot-take.

The only reason I sass is because I think this post epitomizes many Americans.
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My statement said nothing about Hamas turning over power. I stated that they need to be eliminated from the country. Should have said territory. Hamas was firing rockets into Israel before they took power and I have no reason to believe they'll stop if they leave power.
 
What's the proposal for eliminating a large terrorist group? I mean I really have no idea how you could do it.
 
No proposal, no idea how it gets done. The Israelis aren't going to be able to remove them without obliterating everything and everyone and that's not really an option. The Israelis will never just sit there and take attacks from Hamas. The Palestinians will eventually have to figure out how to rid themselves of Hamas.
 
The Mangler said:
No proposal, no idea how it gets done. The Israelis aren't going to be able to remove them without obliterating everything and everyone and that's not really an option. The Israelis will never just sit there and take attacks from Hamas. The Palestinians will eventually have to figure out how to rid themselves of Hamas.
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Seems like Israel and the rest of the world cold give the Palestinians a better option that would lead to Hamas going away.
 
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