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Saudi World Golf Tour 2022/2023 Thread

In terms of the OWGR points, I think if these events aren’t given any points it will look pretty bad from the casual golf fan’s perspective. It comes off as petty and vindictive. They can couch it in whatever arguments they want about 54 holes, no cut, etc, but it will only come off as sour grapes.
 
Just caught Steve Sands on the TK podcast and I think he’s right, this will ultimately be up to the majors but mainly the masters.
 
Les Grossman said:
In terms of the OWGR points, I think if these events aren’t given any points it will look pretty bad from the casual golf fan’s perspective. It comes off as petty and vindictive. They can couch it in whatever arguments they want about 54 holes, no cut, etc, but it will only come off as sour grapes.
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Doubt it unless that causal fan is already pro-Saudi tour. It’s more weird that so many tours are included in the rankings. The idea that a country could just start a tour and get in the rankings after a few events makes little sense.
 
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The fields are just not strong enough to earn OWGR points, unless the points are minimal. It’s really just that simple. The minor league tours all over the world provide OWGR points but they are at a much smaller rate. So if the LIV tour players ever win OWGR points they will be almost negligible. That’s likely what will happen.

This tour will fold. And these guys will have their money and be in awkward golf land for a while.
 
Saw something on Twitter yesterday where allegedly DJ was asked if he talked with Augusta before making the leap. He said yes, and then when asked what they said he said they would need to ask them. He wasn’t going to talk about it.

First, this was on Twitter so who knows if it’s true. However, I would imagine him and other past champions had the same conversation. I have a feeling the Masters will not involved, as they shouldn’t. Furthermore, with Bubba Watson rumored to be leaving, there does seem to be an inordinate amount of Masters champions leaving. If he leaves it would be half the champions over the last 12 years. This lends me to believe they’ve been given assurances that they will continue to be invited.
 
guitardeac said:
The fields are just not strong enough to earn OWGR points, unless the points are minimal. It’s really just that simple. The minor league tours all over the world provide OWGR points but they are at a much smaller rate. So if the LIV tour players ever win OWGR points they will be almost negligible. That’s likely what will happen.

This tour will fold. And these guys will have their money and be in awkward golf land for a while.
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If the players rumored to leave end up leaving, they will have 25-30 top 100 players. That’s no mini tour event if you win it. It’s still not on the level of winning a PGA tour event, but it’s worth something if you do.

The whole concept is you get points for proving your ability as a golfer. If you can tee it up in a LIV event and win, it’s not a meaningless accomplishment. If the powers that be want to give it points, but maybe less than what it should be worth to stick it them, then fine. But to award no points at all is just laughable and screams sour grapes because another tour can pay the players more than the PGA tour can.
 
Past champions of The Masters being able to continue to play in The Masters is meaningless. That’s a no brainer. Who cares if DJ and a few guys who have no chance of ever winning it again are allowed to play in it? But I think the rest of the guys won’t qualify anymore. Bryce and the few others on the LiV that can still break 80 will probably not be playing in The Masters for a while. I just don’t know how those guys will qualify.
 
guitardeac said:
Past champions of The Masters being able to continue to play in The Masters is meaningless. That’s a no brainer. Who cares if DJ and a few guys who have no chance of ever winning it again are allowed to play in it? But I think the rest of the guys won’t qualify anymore. Bryce and the few others on the LiV that can still break 80 will probably not be playing in The Masters for a while. I just don’t know how those guys will qualify.
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Well, Bryson won a US Open so he’s good. I get your point that it will be difficult for them to get in based on the points. I don’t disagree. Im just talking about the rumors that the Masters will ban the players. I don’t think they will because they wouldn’t do it to past champions and they figure it will work itself out because it will be tough for them to garner enough OWGR points to be exempt.
 
Les Grossman said:
If the players rumored to leave end up leaving, they will have 25-30 top 100 players. That’s no mini tour event if you win it. It’s still not on the level of winning a PGA tour event, but it’s worth something if you do.

The whole concept is you get points for proving your ability as a golfer. If you can tee it up in a LIV event and win, it’s not a meaningless accomplishment. If the powers that be want to give it points, but maybe less than what it should be worth to stick it them, then fine. But to award no points at all is just laughable and screams sour grapes because another tour can pay the players more than the PGA tour can.
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The fields are terrible. The top 100 players are all - save for about 2 or 3 - are back end fading top 100 players. The rest of the players are awful. And those 25-30 players you mention will not be top 100 anymore because they all earned the vast majority of their points because they were playing in PGA Tour events where the points are heavy. Whatever points, if any, the LIV tour is awarded it will certainly be much less and therefore these guys will not be able to sniff the top 100. In other words, these players earned their points by playing mediocre in PGA Tour events. That luxury is gone for them. Goodbye top 100 and any sort of recognition around the world as a top player.
 
Pilchard said:
Mickleson thinks the PGA Tour is depriving the players of their "media rights". Phil loves to talk, but he often talks out his ass, and is under the belief that the PGAT is taking "$20 billion" from the players in media rights.

Here is the quote from a February Golf Digest article:

But that would be an opinion, Mickelson said, that doesn’t fully take into account the PGA Tour’s relationship with its players, particularly in the realm of media rights. As ever, he offered, there are two sides to this dispute.

“It’s not public knowledge, all that goes on,” Mickelson said. “But the players don’t have access to their own media. If the tour wanted to end any threat [from Saudi or anywhere else], they could just hand back the media rights to the players. But they would rather throw $25 million here and $40 million there than give back the roughly $20 billion in digital assets they control. Or give up access to the $50-plus million they make every year on their own media channel.

Phil wants his own Mickelson Channel:


“If I had access to my own channel and access to my own media, I would have a camera and microphone on my hat,” he went on. “And on my [caddie] brother’s hat. And on my golf bag with a 360 view. And I would bring the viewers in. They would see and hear what is going on. But none of that happens [currently] because why would any player do that? To make more millions for the tour? They already make enough. The tour only understands leverage. And now the players are getting some of that. So things are changing and will continue to change. I just hope the leverage doesn’t go away. If it does, we’ll be back to the status quo.”
Here is the PGAT's position:

The PGA Tour declined to comment on Mickelson’s comments on Wednesday. However, the tour has previously cited that its business model is consistent with other professional sports leagues in that it relies on media rights to maximize revenue. In a Nov. 21, 2021 memo to players, PGA Tour Commissioner Jay Monahan said 85 percent of the tour’s consolidated revenue is tournament-related, either from sponsors or from domestic and international media. In the memo, Monahan also noted that 55 percent of the tour’s 2021 revenue will be directed back to players.

Here's a link to the article: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phil-mickelson-pga-tour-media-rights-obnoxious-greed
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The top players already making shit tons of money complaining that they should make even more money is a really bad look especially with today’s inflated prices on everything and people struggling to pay those prices. I mean even if they do have some valid points, maybe have some awareness that that their “problem” of not thinking they’re not getting paid what their worth really isn’t much of a problem when they’re already multi-millionaires. Now if they want to go play a Rogue tour because it’s less events and less work (only 3 rounds) and they want to be able to spend more time with their families, so be it, but don’t act like you’re doing this because of unfair treatment when it comes to money.
 
Obviously it helps the strength of the field if a handful of better players join, but 54 holes without a cut in a tiny field will either eliminate or drastically reduce any chance at meaningful OWGR points even if they do eventually become recognized. Plus there aren't many events.

I'd love it if Augusta taking a no-bullshit stand here. Just say there is a clear and obvious difference between simply participating in events in countries with terrible human rights practices and joining a rival tour funded by those governments with no aim towards profitability. Pull the standing invites of anyone who took the money and left, champions included. Say that individuals can support whatever governments they want to support, but that Augusta will not participate.
 
DCDeac said:
Obviously it helps the strength of the field if a handful of better players join, but 54 holes without a cut in a tiny field will either eliminate or drastically reduce any chance at meaningful OWGR points even if they do eventually become recognized. Plus there aren't many events.

I'd love it if Augusta taking a no-bullshit stand here. Just say there is a clear and obvious difference between simply participating in events in countries with terrible human rights practices and joining a rival tour funded by those governments with no aim towards profitability. Pull the standing invites of anyone who took the money and left, champions included. Say that individuals can support whatever governments they want to support, but that Augusta will not participate.
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Freaking Olgetree is going to get $120,000 for shooting 20 some over par for 3 rounds it appears. Nice work if you can get it I guess.
 
That’s a pretty broad standard I doubt Augusta would want to mess with. It’s a problem that will work itself out over time based on the qualifications as long as they don’t include LIV in the rankings.
 
DCDeac said:
Obviously it helps the strength of the field if a handful of better players join, but 54 holes without a cut in a tiny field will either eliminate or drastically reduce any chance at meaningful OWGR points even if they do eventually become recognized. Plus there aren't many events.

I'd love it if Augusta taking a no-bullshit stand here. Just say there is a clear and obvious difference between simply participating in events in countries with terrible human rights practices and joining a rival tour funded by those governments with no aim towards profitability. Pull the standing invites of anyone who took the money and left, champions included. Say that individuals can support whatever governments they want to support, but that Augusta will not participate.
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Augusta National talking about others' terrible human rights practices would have just a tad of irony in it. That said, LIV is bad for the game and is an existential threat, and I'd like to see AN, PGAofA, USGA and the R&A all decline to permit LIV golfers to play in future majors.
 
DCDeac said:
Obviously it helps the strength of the field if a handful of better players join, but 54 holes without a cut in a tiny field will either eliminate or drastically reduce any chance at meaningful OWGR points even if they do eventually become recognized. Plus there aren't many events.

I'd love it if Augusta taking a no-bullshit stand here. Just say there is a clear and obvious difference between simply participating in events in countries with terrible human rights practices and joining a rival tour funded by those governments with no aim towards profitability. Pull the standing invites of anyone who took the money and left, champions included. Say that individuals can support whatever governments they want to support, but that Augusta will not participate.
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Ok. Now do PGA Tour’s alliance with China with PGA Tour - China.
 
No argument here, I hope the PGA Tour loses their case with the IRS and is forced out of the China partnership. At the same time, I think there's a pretty big difference between investing/partnering/helping a tour halfway across the world with its own players versus supporting a new tour that directly competes with the PGA, that's coming onto US soil and buying out American players.

It's not all the same, "but, China" doesn't justify every sportswashing effort regardless of scope or goal.
 
I think it’s splitting hairs. Both are supporting reprehensible regimes. It’s why the Masters shouldn’t take the stance you mentioned, and probably because they have a number of members who have earned their billions thanks to Saudi Arabia and/or China.
 
guitardeac said:
The fields are terrible. The top 100 players are all - save for about 2 or 3 - are back end fading top 100 players. The rest of the players are awful.
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We just disagree here. These fields are not that far behind ordinary PGA tour events. Again, the majors don't count since everyone is in them. These fields stack up behind the Wells Fargo and Riviera but they are already ahead of the Quad Cities, Travelers, Valspar, New Orleans.

You are right that, if they stop spending so much money this tour will fold. Tours come and go and always will. The only regrets will be from players who failed to get the generational wealth while they could.
 
It's not splitting hairs to say the LIV Tour and PGA Tour China partnership are drastically different situations with even more drastically different stakes.

If anything the LIV Tour should help drive criticism and a re-evaluation of China. Using it to justify the LIV Tour is a joke though. Same with the "but what about F1" or "what about DP events in the Middle East," etc.
 
I’m not using it to justify it. I’m just saying I don’t want to hear any sanctimonious BS from the tour. They’re just as complicit in sportswashing as any player who takes a check this week.
 
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