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Libertarians On the Rise

RJKarl said:
The premise that marriage equality, pot, etc., were initiated or led by libertarians into the mainstream is simply not true. Libertarians are a tiny, non-consequential group. They aren't the vanguard creating or leading these changes.
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Then who has led it? Until very recently (after the horse was our of the stable) both mainstream parties were against marriage equality and drug legalization.
 
SkinsNDeacs said:
Then who has led it? Until very recently (after the horse was our of the stable) both mainstream parties were against marriage equality and drug legalization.
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I would say it was led by Democrats at the state level.
 
BeachBumDeac said:
I would say it was led by Democrats at the state level.
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there are definitely some libertarianish state-level Republicans who are on board with marijuana legalization out West, but not gay marriage. Gay marriage has been an exclusively Democratic party effort as far as I can tell. Other than some Senators like Portman who jumped on the back of the train after it had already left the station. And BBD is right that the state Democrats were way out ahead of national Democrats many of whom were afraid of the issue (like a certain former Senator from Illinois).
 
Deacon923 said:
there are definitely some libertarianish state-level Republicans who are on board with marijuana legalization out West, but not gay marriage. Gay marriage has been an exclusively Democratic party effort as far as I can tell. Other than some Senators like Portman who jumped on the back of the train after it had already left the station. And BBD is right that the state Democrats were way out ahead of national Democrats many of whom were afraid of the issue (like a certain former Senator from Illinois).
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That may be true but you can't credit the party with that. Their platform until last year was anti marriage equality.
 
they put pro-marriage equality language in their platform for the 2012 elections, September 2012.

I am not sure what the platform said before that, i.e. whether it was anti- or just silent.
 
SkinsNDeacs said:
Anti marriage equality? Yes...until last year. Unless I am mistaken (absolutely possible).
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I'm not a Democrat, so I'm not up to date on most of their official policy planks, but I'm pretty sure the Democratic Party didn't have an official plank on marriage equality before adding one in 2012, and it certainly wasn't "anti marriage equality"
 
Deacon923 said:
they put pro-marriage equality language in their platform for the 2012 elections, September 2012.

I am not sure what the platform said before that, i.e. whether it was anti- or just silent.
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As I recall, in 2008, democrats did not have marriage equality language in the platform. Back then, Obama said he was "evolving" on marriage equality.
 
I'm not sure why we need to find something in the national platform to give a party credit, but here are a few:

2008 Platform

It is not enough to look back in wonder at how far we have come; those who came before us did not strike a blow against injustice only so that we would allow injustice to fester in our time. That means removing the barriers of prejudice and misunderstanding that still exist in America. We support the full inclusion of all families, including same-sex couples, in the life of our nation, and support equal responsibility, benefits, and protections. We will enact a comprehensive bipartisan employment non-discrimination act. We oppose the Defense of Marriage Act and all attempts to use this issue to divide us.
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2004 Platform

We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal responsibilities, benefits, and protections for these families. In our country, marriage has been defined at the state level for 200 years, and we believe it should continue to be defined there. We repudiate President Bush's divisive effort to politicize the Constitution by pursuing a "Federal Marriage Amendment." Our goal is to bring Americans together, not drive them apart.
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So in 2004, they punted it back to the states and in 2012 they went further, but stopped short of saying "we support gay marriage.

In any event, it sure as shit hasn't been republicans leading way.
 
I think polls have shown that only about a quarter of Republicans favor gay marriage.
 
SkinsNDeacs said:
Then who has led it? Until very recently (after the horse was our of the stable) both mainstream parties were against marriage equality and drug legalization.
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The younger generations have led it, especially WRT to drug legalization. The fact that younger people, say under 50, correlate more highly with being libertarians than people over 50 does not mean the push to legalization of marijuana is due to libertarians. Most people in favor of marijuana legalization aren't that way because they think the government has overstepped its duties or bounds by making a drug illegal, they just realize it isn't a harmful substance that needs to be regulated that way by the government. I would say most people I know that are in favor of marijuana legalization would not be in favor of legalizing a number of other currently illegal drugs or diminishing regulations on the sale of prescription meds. They just realize that, for all intents and purposes, smoking a bowl is no more harmful than a couple of cigarettes or a few drinks (truth being if done right it is safer) so there is no need for it to be illegal. That is a far cry from believing it is NOT the job of government to regulate those types of substances. If you want to give credit to libertarians for the movement towards legalization that is fine but also qualifies as an erroneous conclusion. Others have already dealt with marriage equality so I won't address that.
 
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bigdoublezero said:
I think polls have shown that only about a quarter of Republicans favor gay marriage.
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No doubt the Republicans get no points for the move towards marriage equality. But it is not as if the Dems have been long supporters of gay marriage on the national level. Sure, they are light years ahead of the neanderthals in the GOP but that does not make them champions of gay marriage.

Between the 3 Libertarians have a much more solid pro marriage equality record than the two major parties combined. I don't know if that means they did any leading or not but they were right about the issue long before Democrats.
 
One of the problems with what you guys are looking for is that there are no libertarians currently holding national office. The closest was Ron (not Rand) Paul and he was pro weed and pro gay marriage in his last presidential run.

For some reason you (the libertarian nit pickers) think that to be "Libertarian" you have to dogmatically adhere to a set of policies or you are not libertarian. That is a fallacy as with any other political party or to say if someone does not believe that God Created the Earth in 6 days, you are not a Christian.

Libertarians have a spectrum of beliefs as do other people. They are no more a monolithic entity any more than "black voters" are monolithic.
 
SkinsNDeacs said:
No doubt the Republicans get no points for the move towards marriage equality. But it is not as if the Dems have been long supporters of gay marriage on the national level. Sure, they are light years ahead of the neanderthals in the GOP but that does not make them champions of gay marriage.

Between the 3 Libertarians have a much more solid pro marriage equality record than the two major parties combined. I don't know if that means they did any leading or not but they were right about the issue long before Democrats.
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Are you trolling? There's been a fairly sizable chunk of gay-friendly Democrats for decades. If Republicans don't get the credit, and Democrats don't get the credit, who the hell gets the credit? You're trying to draw a distinction between the monolithic organization of the Democratic Party and members of the Democratic Party that is pretty distortive to the issue.
 
Sgt Hulka said:
One of the problems with what you guys are looking for is that there are no libertarians currently holding national office. The closest was Ron (not Rand) Paul and he was pro weed and pro gay marriage in his last presidential run.

For some reason you (the libertarian nit pickers) think that to be "Libertarian" you have to dogmatically adhere to a set of policies or you are not libertarian. That is a fallacy as with any other political party or to say if someone does not believe that God Created the Earth in 6 days, you are not a Christian.

Libertarians have a spectrum of beliefs as do other people. They are no more a monolithic entity any more than "black voters" are monolithic.
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If a political affiliation isn't more monolithic than a racial group, why be a political affiliation at all?
 
bigdoublezero said:
Are you trolling? There's been a fairly sizable chunk of gay-friendly Democrats for decades. If Republicans don't get the credit, and Democrats don't get the credit, who the hell gets the credit? You're trying to draw a distinction between the monolithic organization of the Democratic Party and members of the Democratic Party that is pretty distortive to the issue.
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I feel like I am getting into an argument and I don't even know what I am arguing about :)

No, I don't think the Democratic Party deserves credit for the advancement of gay marriage because the national party was not in support of it until the public shifted its opinion. You can bet your last dollar that if the public was still overwhelmingly against gay marriage so would the Democratic Party. Sure, there was far more support for marriage equality inside the Democratic Party (and those individuals deserve credit) but the national party was late to the parade. Who does deserve the credit? Young people, IMO. It is because younger people that don't care about the issue are starting to out number the old dying people that do that the issue has gained steam. The train had left the station when the national Democratic Party jumped on.
 
PhDeac said:
If a political affiliation isn't more monolithic than a racial group, why be a political affiliation at all?
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I knew you would take the bait! It was just an analogy...you are so jazzed that there is no "black vote." I was going to say dem/pub...but you get the idea.

Also, I fear you will never get libertarians based upon a post on another thread where people are just too stupid to care for themselves (paraphrasing).
 
You're comparing a political affiliation with a racial group. That's a poor analogy to use to prop up the political group. To say libertarian doesn't capture anybody's political beliefs anymore than black does defeats most of your stance on this thread.
 
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