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Libertarians On the Rise

PhDeac said:
You're comparing a political affiliation with a racial group. That's a poor analogy to use to prop up the political group. To say libertarian doesn't capture anybody's political beliefs anymore than black does defeats most of your stance on this thread.
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You wear me out, man! I only put it in there to see if you would bite. You did.


Thanks. This place is too frustrating, so I think I will sit on the sidelines for a while. I will not be able to convince you of the benefits of Libertarian ideology for the country. Fair thee well and tell No Bare Feet I said hey.
 
You get worn out really easily. He literally just responded with three sentences.
 
SkinsNDeacs said:
I feel like I am getting into an argument and I don't even know what I am arguing about :)

No, I don't think the Democratic Party deserves credit for the advancement of gay marriage because the national party was not in support of it until the public shifted its opinion. You can bet your last dollar that if the public was still overwhelmingly against gay marriage so would the Democratic Party. Sure, there was far more support for marriage equality inside the Democratic Party (and those individuals deserve credit) but the national party was late to the parade. Who does deserve the credit? Young people, IMO. It is because younger people that don't care about the issue are starting to out number the old dying people that do that the issue has gained steam. The train had left the station when the national Democratic Party jumped on.
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OK, so Democrats deserve credit but the Democratic Party itself does not? Seems like a lame distinction.

Anyhow, this thread apparently is about how the parties themselves don't matter, it's the various related ideologies held by their memberships that do. And Democrats are behind the shift toward marriage equality.
 
I like some libertarian ideas and read a fair amount of what reason.com and cato.org put on their webpages, but I don't really think that "libertarianism" or libertarians as a voting bloc count for much in this country. Some of their ideas crop up from time to time and get mainstream but it's hard for me to give Cato or the Libertarian Party any credit for gay marriage or weed legalization. What happened with both those issues is that people who cared deeply about them worked really hard for a really long time to make some change. The libertarian websites have recently been crowing about how that means libertarianism is catching on but I just don't see it, and I don't see that the Libertarian Party had a lot to do with moving the needle on those issues.

It could be that libertarian-leaning commentators and writers have helped change some minds here and there. But overwhelmingly for gay marriage in particular it has been gay people and their straight allies getting organized, raising money, and working really hard to change minds since the 90s. I would be willing to bet that if you took 10,000 activists who have been involved in gay marriage (i.e., giving money, handing out flyers, campaigning) well over 50% would registered Democrats, a good chunk would be independent w/strong Dem lean, a very small percentage would registered Republicans, and almost none would be card-carrying Libertarian party members.
 
Deacon923 said:
I like some libertarian ideas and read a fair amount of what reason.com and cato.org put on their webpages, but I don't really think that "libertarianism" or libertarians as a voting bloc count for much in this country. Some of their ideas crop up from time to time and get mainstream but it's hard for me to give Cato or the Libertarian Party any credit for gay marriage or weed legalization. What happened with both those issues is that people who cared deeply about them worked really hard for a really long time to make some change. The libertarian websites have recently been crowing about how that means libertarianism is catching on but I just don't see it, and I don't see that the Libertarian Party had a lot to do with moving the needle on those issues.

It could be that libertarian-leaning commentators and writers have helped change some minds here and there. But overwhelmingly for gay marriage in particular it has been gay people and their straight allies getting organized, raising money, and working really hard to change minds since the 90s. I would be willing to bet that if you took 10,000 activists who have been involved in gay marriage (i.e., giving money, handing out flyers, campaigning) well over 50% would registered Democrats, a good chunk would be independent w/strong Dem lean, a very small percentage would registered Republicans, and almost none would be card-carrying Libertarian party members.
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Disagree with bold
 
Deacon923 said:
But overwhelmingly for gay marriage in particular it has been gay people and their straight allies getting organized, raising money, and working really hard to change minds since the 90s. I would be willing to bet that if you took 10,000 activists who have been involved in gay marriage (i.e., giving money, handing out flyers, campaigning) well over 50% would registered Democrats, a good chunk would be independent w/strong Dem lean, a very small percentage would registered Republicans, and almost none would be card-carrying Libertarian party members.
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This.
 
I mean, there are like 300,000 people who identify as libertarians, and according to the most recent polling, 60% of them oppose same-sex marriage. That's in 2013, so going back 10, 20 years through the gay rights movement, you'd have to think the percentage was even higher among libertarians. So then out of that 100,000 or so who are for marriage equality, what percentage is likely to be an active member of the gay rights movement? (An active member of any political movement, really?) It's very small.
 
bigdoublezero said:
I mean, there are like 300,000 people who identify as libertarians, and according to the most recent polling, 60% of them oppose same-sex marriage. That's in 2013, so going back 10, 20 years through the gay rights movement, you'd have to think the percentage was even higher among libertarians. So then out of that 100,000 or so who are for marriage equality, what percentage is likely to be an active member of the gay rights movement? (An active member of any political movement, really?) It's very small.
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Not doubting you but where did you get that number from? That surprises me (but I guess it shouldn't).
 
2wr3mms.jpg
 
Good grief. I don't know how anyone could identify as a Libertarian and oppose same sex marriage. Unless you are saying you oppose the state recognizing any marriage.
 
SkinsNDeacs said:
Not doubting you but where did you get that number from? That surprises me (but I guess it shouldn't).
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There is a very high crossover between people who identify as Libertarian and Republican.
 
Deacon923 said:
I like some libertarian ideas and read a fair amount of what reason.com and cato.org put on their webpages, but I don't really think that "libertarianism" or libertarians as a voting bloc count for much in this country. Some of their ideas crop up from time to time and get mainstream but it's hard for me to give Cato or the Libertarian Party any credit for gay marriage or weed legalization. What happened with both those issues is that people who cared deeply about them worked really hard for a really long time to make some change. The libertarian websites have recently been crowing about how that means libertarianism is catching on but I just don't see it, and I don't see that the Libertarian Party had a lot to do with moving the needle on those issues.

It could be that libertarian-leaning commentators and writers have helped change some minds here and there. But overwhelmingly for gay marriage in particular it has been gay people and their straight allies getting organized, raising money, and working really hard to change minds since the 90s. I would be willing to bet that if you took 10,000 activists who have been involved in gay marriage (i.e., giving money, handing out flyers, campaigning) well over 50% would registered Democrats, a good chunk would be independent w/strong Dem lean, a very small percentage would registered Republicans, and almost none would be card-carrying Libertarian party members.
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I think that the problem with your line of thinking is in degree. Certainly the vanguard for the weed/gay marriage legalization was done by the Dems. No argument here. However, there had to be a tipping point and I think that is where Libertarian leaning/philosophy, etc come into play to put it over the 50% threshold. The "libertarian" leaning 'pubs and the libertarians themselves contributed to the majority who is not threatened by gay marriage, or weed legalization IMO.
 
bigdoublezero said:
2wr3mms.jpg
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I don't know where these figures come from, but I don't know a single libertarian who is against Same Sex Marriage. Most are agnostic, some are "activists." There is no way "all americans" outnumber libertarians in their view of same sex marriage.

This calls for a PhDeac investigation into methodology!

To the Ph Cave, Stat Boy!
 
Sgt Hulka said:
I think that the problem with your line of thinking is in degree. Certainly the vanguard for the weed/gay marriage legalization was done by the Dems. No argument here. However, there had to be a tipping point and I think that is where Libertarian leaning/philosophy, etc come into play to put it over the 50% threshold. The "libertarian" leaning 'pubs and the libertarians themselves contributed to the majority who is not threatened by gay marriage, or weed legalization IMO.
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nvm. Thought this was a different poster at first
 
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SkinsNDeacs said:
Then who has led it? Until very recently (after the horse was our of the stable) both mainstream parties were against marriage equality and drug legalization.
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southern democrats ya donk. that isnt every democrat.
 
Sgt Hulka said:
I don't know where these figures come from, but I don't know a single libertarian who is against Same Sex Marriage. Most are agnostic, some are "activists." There is no way "all americans" outnumber libertarians in their view of same sex marriage.

This calls for a PhDeac investigation into methodology!

To the Ph Cave, Stat Boy!
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when you live in atl i think you get a different POV. much like living in SF. i honestly dont know anyone who espouses to be against gay marriage regardless of political party.
 
i blame the cali libs for all these developments fyi.
 
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