Obama pushes for paid family leave

[TownieDeac]

So, in other words, CEO salary has no relation to a company's ability to provide better benefits to its employees.

They're correlated, not causally related. Companies that have high profit margins tend to have high CEO pay and decent benefits. I was suggesting to knowell that perhaps:

A) profit margin isn't a barrier to giving excellent benefits like family leave
B) CEO pay multipliers seem to be an unquestioned given, but family leave is taboo

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

2&2's vile response any time women in the workplace or maternity leave comes up is pretty amazing. dude has a serious problem with working women.

I have no problem working with women, some of our best employees are women. What I have a problem with is somebody saying that they'll be back to work in a few months, so hold their job for them and deal with all of the inconvenience and expense that entails, and then deciding at the end of the period that they aren't coming back at all. I imagine I would be exponentially more pissed off if I had to pay them their salary for not working during that period as well.

 

[Wrangor]

I just get tired of this whole 'right' vs. 'privilege' push. Even in healthcare. It isn't a human right to receive healthcare. It certainly isn't a right to receive a month and a half of paid vacation after having a child. Now none of this means that it isn't something we can't strive for as an industrialized, wealthy nation. But these things aren't RIGHTS. By attempting to redefine these things as rights, all Obama is doing is marginalizing any dissension, and labeling opposition as human rights violators. It isn't productive or correct in my opinion. I think we should strive for universal healthcare (I think it should be single payer base with the option to purchase additional insurance on top of a basic coverage for all), but that isn't because I believe it is a right. I don't know what to think about a mandatory 6 weeks paid leave after having a child, but I know it isn't a right. We are a society of entitlements (and I am not talking specifically about welfare although that is included. I am talking about the investment banker that DESERVES a tax break, or the farmer that DESERVES a subsidy as well). Everyone owes us something simply for being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. I just don't believe that is a good mentality to have as a nation, and I do everything in my power to teach my kids the opposite of that.

In some ways I agree with the Obama statement of 'you didn't build that'. Almost all we have is grace in this life. If we all look at how our lives have developed over time I think we can all see specific instances where if we made one different seemingly insignificant decision, that our life would be totally different. I think if we got over this idea of trying to secure everything as a 'right' and instead treated everything as privilege we would not only have much more meaningful discussion, but in my opinion better results.

[steps off soap box]

 

[TownieDeac]

we should be so grateful that our govt overlords give us anything

 

[PhDeac]

It's strange to me that people divorce quality affordable healthcare from life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

It's strange to me that people divorce quality affordable healthcare from life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Why? Affordable healthcare requires other people to affirmatively act for your benefit. Life and liberty prevent people from doing something to take them away from you, and pursuit is something that is on the actor. If affordable healthcare is part of those three rights, then why isn't affordable food, shelter, clothing, etc?

 

[Liquid Karma]

we should be so grateful that our govt overlords give us anything

Serious question - where do you draw the line at what you feel the federal government should provide for us? Let's say this maternity leave issue passes. There's always one more social cause that could see an issue being transformed from a privilege to a right.

 

[jhmd2000]

It's strange to me that people divorce quality affordable healthcare from life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Not as strange as expecting something as important as quality health care to be delegated to others to provide for you. Health insurance strikes me as the sort of thing that people would prioritize over luxury items.

Why? Affordable healthcare requires other people to affirmatively act for your benefit. Life and liberty prevent people from doing something to take them away from you, and pursuit is something that is on the actor. If affordable healthcare is part of those three rights, then why isn't affordable food, shelter, clothing, etc?

^ What he said.

 

[jhmd2000]

I just get tired of this whole 'right' vs. 'privilege' push. Even in healthcare. It isn't a human right to receive healthcare. It certainly isn't a right to receive a month and a half of paid vacation after having a child. Now none of this means that it isn't something we can't strive for as an industrialized, wealthy nation. But these things aren't RIGHTS. By attempting to redefine these things as rights, all Obama is doing is marginalizing any dissension, and labeling opposition as human rights violators. It isn't productive or correct in my opinion. I think we should strive for universal healthcare (I think it should be single payer base with the option to purchase additional insurance on top of a basic coverage for all), but that isn't because I believe it is a right. I don't know what to think about a mandatory 6 weeks paid leave after having a child, but I know it isn't a right. We are a society of entitlements (and I am not talking specifically about welfare although that is included. I am talking about the investment banker that DESERVES a tax break, or the farmer that DESERVES a subsidy as well). Everyone owes us something simply for being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. I just don't believe that is a good mentality to have as a nation, and I do everything in my power to teach my kids the opposite of that.

In some ways I agree with the Obama statement of 'you didn't build that'. Almost all we have is grace in this life. If we all look at how our lives have developed over time I think we can all see specific instances where if we made one different seemingly insignificant decision, that our life would be totally different. I think if we got over this idea of trying to secure everything as a 'right' and instead treated everything as privilege we would not only have much more meaningful discussion, but in my opinion better results.

[steps off soap box]

Say it louder, Candy.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

Maybe this is an extreme point of view but I think that in a wealthy industrialized nation that it is a basic human right to receive health care.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Maybe this is an extreme point of view but I think that in a wealthy industrialized nation that it is a basic human right to receive health care.

We do provide health care. Emergency rooms do not turn away patients.

However, there is a big difference between providing actual health care and forcing people to pay for a bastardized form of health insurance, which is what we now compel.

 

[TownieDeac]

Serious question - where do you draw the line at what you feel the federal government should provide for us? Let's say this maternity leave issue passes. There's always one more social cause that could see an issue being transformed from a privilege to a right.

I won't engage with the slippery slope fallacy. I think each issue can continue to be debated on its own merit.

 

[jhmd2000]

Maybe this is an extreme point of view but I think that in a wealthy industrialized nation that it is a basic human right to receive health care.

What in your mind constitutes a non-delegable duty?

In my right wing utopia, people would attend to their own needs first (i.e., providing for their children, providing their own food, water and shelter, and yes, health care) before indulging in their wants. With all do respect to the straw man, you're not arguing with anyone who thinks that everyone shouldn't have health care. You're arguing with people who think that every able-bodied person should pull their own weight (for example in this case, you are arguing with the President).

Health care is a good thing. Access to affordable health care is a better thing. Subscribing to cable television, a full data plan on your cell phone and doing your part to contribute to epidemic morbid obesity while expecting others to pay for your basic human responsibilities is not a wise choice (and unbelievably hard to reconcile with plain meaning of the term "equal").

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Keep openly discriminating half of the world's population.

Oh, it's much more than half when you include Muslims.
Just kidding. Or am I?

 

[Wrangor]

Maybe this is an extreme point of view but I think that in a wealthy industrialized nation that it is a basic human right to receive health care.

It isn't a human right if you can differentiate between wealthy and poor nations. Human rights are universal. That is what makes them rights. You are kind of making my point.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

I think it's a human right everywhere in 2015 that there be access to basic health care. I was talking from the lens of America though. I also don't think that it really matters between differentiating between human rights and just "grace" until people try to deprive others of the amenity being discussed.

 

[jhmd2000]

I think it's a human right everywhere in 2015 that there be access to basic health care. I was talking from the lens of America though. I also don't think that it really matters between differentiating between human rights and just "grace" until people try to deprive others of the amenity being discussed.

"Access" =/= entitlement.

I have access to many things that I can't make other people pay for.

 

[TownieDeac]

jhmd is way better at this than 2&2

 

[TownieDeac]

If a nation can piss away the obscene amount of money on military spending like this nation does, it can afford to give all its citizens healthcare.

How much does this country spend on the military now? The last time I checked it was something like more than the combined total of the next 9 largest countrys' military spending.

this is also faulty logic

just because we piss away money in one area doesn't mean we should in other areas

 

[WFU Lurker]

They're correlated, not causally related. Companies that have high profit margins tend to have high CEO pay and decent benefits. I was suggesting to knowell that perhaps:

A) profit margin isn't a barrier to giving excellent benefits like family leave
B) CEO pay multipliers seem to be an unquestioned given, but family leave is taboo

I don't think CEO pay multipliers are unquestioned; I think what is questioned is the government's ability to regulate CEO pay. I personally feel that CEO pay is absolutely out of control. I also feel that it has happened as a result of board of directors failing to perform their duties diligently and any regulation reforms should focus on increasing board effectiveness and independence, therefore indirectly solving for the CEO pay issue.

That said, in the grand scheme of things, CEO pay, to my earlier point, rarely significantly impact's a company's bottom line (at least in the case of large public companies). It simply isn't a big issue.

From a macro sense, I don't think maternity or paternity leave is really a big issue either (if someone averages 2-3 children, that's going to be <7% of his or her career on leave). That said, in the age where many people change companies every 4-5 years, one could imagine that stringent requirements would create both age and gender discrimination because who wants to pay a woman from ages 25-30 if she's only going to work for 3 of those 5 years?