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Breaking down the Tunnels' favorite conservative myth

TheTwinAndreBen said:
If you don't know then we can't have this conversation. Stick to Excel spreadsheets of 17yo boys.
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This is the dumbest thing that you've ever posted. The "canon" may be the single most historically contested concept in literature. Any recovering English major knows that...

The funny thing is that TNC has posted about this before, too, and comes off as far less of a hack as you do. "Who is the Tolstoy of the fratstars?"
 
LK, respectfully, there's space between not liking a given writer and getting completely unhinged by anything mentioning Coates, no matter how indirectly (cf post 2, this thread).
 
It appears my general policy of paying no attention to anyone with a hyphen anywhere in their name proves again to be a wise choice.
 
WakeandBake said:
No, that is not what I want you to do at all.

I want you to defend the veracity of yours.

The only way your argument - that the left's message does a disservice to the poor - to hold water is for the poor to be stupid, hapless rubes. Otherwise they would see right through the ridiculous nonsense the left is spouting.
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That's silly. The value of the speaker's argument is not a functional of the intellect of the audience. A bad argument is just as bad in front of W&B (a boy genius) as it is in front of mere mortals such as YHC. Telling someone---smart, average, or otherwise---that they're not capable of succeeding because the system hates them is condescending at best.
 
TuffaloDeac10 said:
LK, respectfully, there's space between not liking a given writer and getting completely unhinged by anything mentioning Coates, no matter how indirectly (cf post 2, this thread).
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Precisely. There's also a difference between disagreeing with opinions (and TNC is fairly radical, so it's to be understood that many of his ideas will be disagreed with) and calling someone a hack, too. You can subjectively dislike something without objectively calling it bad or wrong.

I think that because he has brought racial discourse into The Atlantic and the NYT and a wide range of MSM outlets, regardless of whether he "hacked" his way in, he's got the talent to stir the pot. America is navigating some fucked up shit with police and race and politics in the 21st century, and it's probably a good thing to have a loud black voice from Baltimore in the middle of it all.
 
jhmd2000 said:
That's silly. The value of the speaker's argument is not a functional of the intellect of the audience. A bad argument is just as bad in front of W&B (a boy genius) as it is in front of mere mortals such as YHC. Telling someone---smart, average, or otherwise---that they're not capable of succeeding because the system hates them is condescending at best.
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But you have argued that that message has caused real-world outcomes. Condescension is one thing. But you have argued that the power of suggestion - that the deck is stacked against them and they cannot succeed on their own - has caused them to not graduate from high school, have babies out of wedlock, etc.

Keep dancing, Sally....
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
It appears my general policy of paying no attention to anyone with a hyphen anywhere in their name proves again to be a wise choice.
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That implies marriage and eventually baby making screwing over your company right? I'm kidding and with you on the hyphen rule.
 
WakeandBake said:
But you have argued that that message has caused real-world outcomes. Condescension is one thing. But you have argued that the power of suggestion - that the deck is stacked against them and they cannot succeed on their own - has caused them to not graduate from high school, have babies out of wedlock, etc.

Keep dancing, Sally....
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Tried to warn you WaB.
 
WakeandBake said:
But you have argued that that message has caused real-world outcomes. Condescension is one thing. But you have argued that the power of suggestion - that the deck is stacked against them and they cannot succeed on their own - has caused them to not graduate from high school, have babies out of wedlock, etc.

Keep dancing, Sally....
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You don't believe negative messaging contributes to negative outcomes?
 
Strickland33 said:
This is the issue, though. He has a working knowledge of a lot of the defining voices of the last few generations of the America he claims to understand. There is an awful lot out there besides Plato, Nietzsche, and Hemingway and TNC talks about it pretty regularly on his blog and in his published work.
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TuffaloDeac10 said:
Chapter break!

Dude's (re-)learning French in his late 30s and doing repeated immersion trips and programs, and writing about his failures with grasping the language in a forum bigger than anything any poster here will ever have. Obviously his profession affords him opportunities that others don't get, but I think that's an impressive practice of lifelong learning. I understand that you have no interest in the man or his writing, but I think that should lead you write less about how committed to ignorance you think he is. Maybe to the extent that you don't even do it at all.
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TuffaloDeac10 said:
That's a remarkably stupid reading of the last couple pages of Between The World And Me. Those pages didn't exactly land with me, but that's not important.

Why are you, a KA, so hung up about a black writer's success? Huh. I wonder what that's about.
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Strickland33 said:
This is the dumbest thing that you've ever posted. The "canon" may be the single most historically contested concept in literature. Any recovering English major knows that...

The funny thing is that TNC has posted about this before, too, and comes off as far less of a hack as you do. "Who is the Tolstoy of the fratstars?"
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Uh Oh. Geedy jimmies are being rustled. I guess we can go there. Ironic stereotyping by people supporting a writer that fights against stereotypes.

What frat I was in 10 years ago has less to do about why I dislike Coates than your geedy, rosy-palmed, social scene sweating, beta-male foreveralone shortcomings have to do with why you clowns support him.
 
jhmd2000 said:
You don't believe negative messaging contributes to negative outcomes?
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Hey Gene Autrey, Im asking you.

So the left has 'negative messaged' the poor into dropping out of high school and having babies and working at Cookout, rather than taking the clear path into the middle class that the Right put forth in their message of hard work and responsibility?
 
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WakeandBake said:
Hey Gene Autrey, Im asking you.

So the left has 'negative messaged' the poor into dropping out of high school and having babies and working at Cookout, rather than taking the clear path into the middle class that the Right put forth?
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What do you think the message you are trying to send is, if not a negative one? What do you mean by "the system hates you, the other guy doesn't pay his fair share, you're wanting 'privilege'"? Perhaps the optimism escapes my feeble mind...
 
TheTwinAndreBen said:
Uh Oh. Geedy jimmies are being rustled. I guess we can go there. Ironic stereotyping by people supporting a writer that fights against stereotypes.

What frat I was in 10 years ago has less to do about why I dislike Coates than your geedy, rosy-palmed, social scene sweating, beta-male foreveralone shortcomings have to do with why you clowns support him.
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carrottop.jpg
 
jhmd2000 said:
What do you think the message you are trying to send is, if not a negative one? What do you mean by "the system hates you, the other guy doesn't pay his fair share, you're wanting 'privilege'"? Perhaps the optimism escapes my feeble mind...
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The only way your argument works is for the American poor to be too stupid to see through and resist negative messages. You believe that some ivory tower sweaty liberals telling hard working Americans that they can't succeed caused them to give up? This is how little you think of these people, that that's all it takes?
 
WakeandBake said:
The only way your argument works is for the American poor to be too stupid to see through and resist negative messages. You believe that some ivory tower sweaty liberals telling hard working Americans that they can't succeed caused them to give up? This is how little you think of these people, that that's all it takes?
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The message is actually much worse than you characterize it, because it is accompanied by insincere promises and subsistence entitlement programs, but the net effect has produced predictable results.

As I have said, if you don't think there is any value in making the four choices analyzed(#debunked!) in the OP, don't make them. Watch what happens.
 
WakeandBake said:
But you have argued that that message has caused real-world outcomes. Condescension is one thing. But you have argued that the power of suggestion - that the deck is stacked against them and they cannot succeed on their own - has caused them to not graduate from high school, have babies out of wedlock, etc.

Keep dancing, Sally....
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Imagine a scenario where two kids grow up in a 3rd world country but were born in the US. The first kid has been taught all his life that the US is an unfair country where only those with money and privilege will succeed. He has been taught that lacking these privileges his likely top end is to barely scrape by and do the work that the privileged wouldn't want to do. The second kid was brought up to believe that the US was the land of opportunity and that if you busted your butt and were resolved to conquer any obstacle in your life, there was no limit to what you could achieve.

At 18, each of these kids parents scrape together all of their savings to get the child to the US where he will arrive penniless to try and make his way in life. Ten years later, who would you bet has achieved more and is living a better life? Which of these two is likely unknown to law enforcement and has a job with some sort of opportunity to get ahead in life?
 
jhmd2000 said:
The message is actually much worse than you characterize it, because it is accompanied by insincere promises and subsistence entitlement programs, but the net effect has produced predictable results.

As I have said, if you don't think there is any value in making the four choices analyzed(#debunked!) in the OP, don't make them. Watch what happens.
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so fleet of foot, this one. Shucking and jiving back to the four choices thing that no one - ever- argued were unwise.

You cannot answer directly because you have owned the "liberals think the poor are stupid and lazy, not me" bit, while simultaneously suggesting that the poor cannot see though the lies and/or control the urge to accept handouts and drop out of school that the liberal message entices them to do.

But by all means, keep dancing Im having a ball
 
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