Taking a Look at Duke's FB Prgram

[TRD Ferguson]

Some of what Reff has said is indeed accurate. Can't pull the exact numbers off of the top of my head, but we are our own worst enemy sometimes regarding admissions and student-athletes. We are self-limited to the number of exceptions we can take per year. Other schools (Duke) are not.

Duke actually does limit the number of exceptions. Kind if hard to argue about duke taking exceptions when you loo at their latest class and most are from private prep schools. Point made above about Conner Vernon doesn't make a whole lot of sense either considering he went to an elite private school in Miami.

 

[TheReff]

Duke actually does limit the number of exceptions. Kind if hard to argue about duke taking exceptions when you loo at their latest class and most are from private prep schools. Point made above about Conner Vernon doesn't make a whole lot of sense either considering he went to an elite private school in Miami.

TRD, you are missing the point about the private school assessment. Elite or not, Wake has made the change with Martha Allman and her minions in the admissions office that basically our normal policy for acceptance is top 10% of the class. Most private schools, elite or whatever, like our local private schools here, Forsyth Country Day, Greensboro Day, High Point Wesleyan, etc, do not have a class rank. Therefore to our admissions office, any of these kids are exceptions. So whatever the number is for the athletic dept [25 is what I have heard it has been], Connor Vernon, Riley Skinner now, or any of the kids we have gotten from the Bolles School and possibly Oak Hill Academy would be academic exceptions because they are NOT in the Top 10% of their class rank or any class rank because there is not one. That is where we are hurting ourselves. This has all changed drastically since Dr Hatch came & since our good bowl seasons in football.

 

[Deacfreak07]

TRD, you are missing the point about the private school assessment. Elite or not, Wake has made the change with Martha Allman and her minions in the admissions office that basically our normal policy for acceptance is top 10% of the class. Most private schools, elite or whatever, like our local private schools here, Forsyth Country Day, Greensboro Day, High Point Wesleyan, etc, do not have a class rank. Therefore to our admissions office, any of these kids are exceptions. So whatever the number is for the athletic dept [25 is what I have heard it has been], Connor Vernon, Riley Skinner now, or any of the kids we have gotten from the Bolles School and possibly Oak Hill Academy would be academic exceptions because they are NOT in the Top 10% of their class rank or any class rank because there is not one. That is where we are hurting ourselves. This has all changed drastically since Dr Hatch came & since our good bowl seasons in football.

Methinks Lil Ref didn't get accepted.

 

[coredeac]

Methinks Lil Ref didn't get accepted.

Real prick response. Nice post, assclown.

TheReff's point is a good one and I've heard very similar reports from several sources. Wake has to determine if it serious about fielding a competitive football program. If so, it must compete with the same or similar athletes attending the competition.

As I've posted before, Wake can make the changes necessary and still be a top academic institution. Look no further than Duke, Stanford or Northwestern for proof.

 

[BillBrasky]

Why don't private schools have class ranks?

I remember all the FCD donks getting assumed honors credit for PE and other bullshit classes. Is this related?

Is The Ref just butthurt he couldn't buy his son into Wake by sending him to FCD?

 

[06deacon]

Not enough radio presents to get in

 

[LilburnDeac]

TRD, you are missing the point about the private school assessment. Elite or not, Wake has made the change with Martha Allman and her minions in the admissions office that basically our normal policy for acceptance is top 10% of the class. Most private schools, elite or whatever, like our local private schools here, Forsyth Country Day, Greensboro Day, High Point Wesleyan, etc, do not have a class rank. Therefore to our admissions office, any of these kids are exceptions. So whatever the number is for the athletic dept [25 is what I have heard it has been], Connor Vernon, Riley Skinner now, or any of the kids we have gotten from the Bolles School and possibly Oak Hill Academy would be academic exceptions because they are NOT in the Top 10% of their class rank or any class rank because there is not one. That is where we are hurting ourselves. This has all changed drastically since Dr Hatch came & since our good bowl seasons in football.

So, because they don't have class rank, private school graduates can't get into Wake?

 

[Deac on]

Real prick response. Nice post, assclown.

TheReff's point is a good one and I've heard very similar reports from several sources. Wake has to determine if it serious about fielding a competitive football program. If so, it must compete with the same or similar athletes attending the competition.

As I've posted before, Wake can make the changes necessary and still be a top academic institution. Look no further than Duke, Stanford or Northwestern for proof.

I doubt there is a single player at any of these schools that we would not have taken.

 

[TheReff]

So, because they don't have class rank, private school graduates can't get into Wake?

No, that is not what I said at all. They also have to take the SAT or ACT, which is not required anymore to get into Wake Forest, but is required for the NCAA clearing house. Because Wake Forest generally accepts folks in the top 10% of their class, and the fact that private high schools generally don't have a class rank, this presents a problem that we created ourselves. Our admissions office makes these folks academic acceptions instead of just looking over their entire body of work and accepting them or not accepting them. Maybe if their SAT/ACT scores are up to our normal standards, they get accepted anyway, but let's say they are 1000. Their grades are great at the private school. But because of no class rank = academic exception for our athletic program. That SAT score puts the athlete far above the NCAA clearing house model and most schools would not have a problem with admittance, but us, we are creating our own problems

 

[TheReff]

Why don't private schools have class ranks?

I remember all the FCD donks getting assumed honors credit for PE and other bullshit classes. Is this related?

Is The Ref just butthurt he couldn't buy his son into Wake by sending him to FCD?

Not at all DonkHead Brasky. There just isn't a class rank and I can't tell you why they don't. But all the kids at FDC my son's graduating year all went to college, getting somewhere over $5 mill in scholarship monies for their roughly 110 graduates. My son did just fine also with his double major in econ & finance at the Darla Moore School of Business at South Carolina, which has the #1 rated international business program in the country. He graduated with honors almost 3 years ago and I am not worried about him at all. He went to school where he wanted to go to college.

 

[LilburnDeac]

No, that is not what I said at all. They also have to take the SAT or ACT, which is not required anymore to get into Wake Forest, but is required for the NCAA clearing house. Because Wake Forest generally accepts folks in the top 10% of their class, and the fact that private high schools generally don't have a class rank, this presents a problem that we created ourselves. Our admissions office makes these folks academic acceptions instead of just looking over their entire body of work and accepting them or not accepting them. Maybe if their SAT/ACT scores are up to our normal standards, they get accepted anyway, but let's say they are 1000. Their grades are great at the private school. But because of no class rank = academic exception for our athletic program. That SAT score puts the athlete far above the NCAA clearing house model and most schools would not have a problem with admittance, but us, we are creating our own problems

So all private school admissions are academic exceptions? I'm not trying to be difficult. I just don't understand the argument you are making.

 

[Pilchard]

This is what Reff is saying:

- All WF athletic programs must recruit athletes that meet the school's general academic profile (top 10% of HS class), but each program is allowed a certain specific number of academic exceptions.
- Apparently, when WF recruits kids from private schools (like the Bolles School, where Riley Skinner went or Bullis Prep, where Justin Herron went or John Wolford from Bishop Kenny) that don't maintain class ranks because essentially everyone at those schools goes to college, WF admissions office refuses to recognize kids from private schools as within the general WF academic profile, even though those kids are good students, and would not be considered an "exception" at other D-1 schools. So, the football program often must use it's academic exceptions on good students just because they go to private schools;
- This policy limits the football team recruiting options as WF is essentially using less exceptions than Duke or Stanford or Northwestern that don't have such a strict interpretation of academic standing.

Did I get that right? If true, really stupid, but it also makes no sense as it means that any kid, whether he is a recruit or not, from a private school only gets in as an exception as WF does not recognize SAT/ACT test scores. How does WF treat applicants from private schools that are not athletes? I know plenty of them from the DC area that went to WF; so, they must have some system in place for evaluating them.

 

[ThinkingWithMyDeac]

Yeah that makes no sense because these days at private colleges I would guess that at minimum 25% of kids went to private high school and that's actually more likely to be closer to 50%.

Just asked someone I know that works in Emory's admission department what their figures are and its a 60/40 split, so if Emory had the same policy it would be 40% are exceptions, seems legit!

 

[deac87]

This is right on. Our athletic problems are directly attributable to Dr Hatch. Look at the history...our overall athletic program has been in steady decline since Hatch's arrival. His insistence on maintaining our "pure" academic standards while our competitors play by different rules is killing us. We will NEVER be historically competitive as long as these idiotic policies remain in place. Don't believe me....just ask the athletic supporters at Notre Dame.

 

[wakephan09]

Ha, that's complete nonsense. Don't believe everything you hear or read, noobs.

 

[scooter84]

One of the posts above mentions that Wake doesn't 'recognize' SAT/ACT scores. I don't think that is correct - Wake doesn't require a student to submit those scores, but, if they are submitted, they will be part of the evaluation for admission. So basically kids only submit them if they think they will help them.

I believe that Wake it is harder to get an academic 'exception' recruit into Wake than it is at most or all other schools playing major conference football. I don't have concrete proof of that, but I believe it is true. And it is consistent with what others above have said. I also believe that it is significantly more difficult to stay eligible and on track at Wake than it is pretty much anywhere else.

What I don't understand is why that message isn't more universally known and discussed in the public sports media. I am always hearing about how hard it is to recruit to Duke because it is such a great school - blah, blah, blah - when I know it is a lot easier there than it is at Wake. Why doesn't the media know that.? Are we not spreading the word sufficiently?

 

[TRD Ferguson]

TRD, you are missing the point about the private school assessment. Elite or not, Wake has made the change with Martha Allman and her minions in the admissions office that basically our normal policy for acceptance is top 10% of the class. Most private schools, elite or whatever, like our local private schools here, Forsyth Country Day, Greensboro Day, High Point Wesleyan, etc, do not have a class rank. Therefore to our admissions office, any of these kids are exceptions. So whatever the number is for the athletic dept [25 is what I have heard it has been], Connor Vernon, Riley Skinner now, or any of the kids we have gotten from the Bolles School and possibly Oak Hill Academy would be academic exceptions because they are NOT in the Top 10% of their class rank or any class rank because there is not one. That is where we are hurting ourselves. This has all changed drastically since Dr Hatch came & since our good bowl seasons in football.

I went to FCdS. I had a class rank. Just saying...they'll give it to u

 

[StrickDeac]

I went to FCdS. I had a class rank. Just saying...they'll give it to u

FCDS does class rank in a different system than what WFU accepts - at least they used to.

 

[wakephan09]

FCDS does class rank in a different system than what WFU accepts - at least they used to.

Also, Wake will ask schools that don't maintain class ranks to "estimate" it for competitive applicants.

 

[TheReff]

This is what Reff is saying:

- All WF athletic programs must recruit athletes that meet the school's general academic profile (top 10% of HS class), but each program is allowed a certain specific number of academic exceptions.
- Apparently, when WF recruits kids from private schools (like the Bolles School, where Riley Skinner went or Bullis Prep, where Justin Herron went or John Wolford from Bishop Kenny) that don't maintain class ranks because essentially everyone at those schools goes to college, WF admissions office refuses to recognize kids from private schools as within the general WF academic profile, even though those kids are good students, and would not be considered an "exception" at other D-1 schools. So, the football program often must use it's academic exceptions on good students just because they go to private schools;
- This policy limits the football team recruiting options as WF is essentially using less exceptions than Duke or Stanford or Northwestern that don't have such a strict interpretation of academic standing.

Did I get that right? If true, really stupid, but it also makes no sense as it means that any kid, whether he is a recruit or not, from a private school only gets in as an exception as WF does not recognize SAT/ACT test scores. How does WF treat applicants from private schools that are not athletes? I know plenty of them from the DC area that went to WF; so, they must have some system in place for evaluating them.

That is exactly correct Pilch. Things changed drastically after Dr Hatch came in 2005, starting with raising the SAT sores 30 points. Then Martha Allman put the deal in with the private schools and their class rank. Couple that together and around 2008 or so you have complete chaos as to what we used to get in [for the ACC football title team & bowl teams] vs. thereafter.
Coach Jim Grobe had to go to the President for a student athlete over Martha Allman to get special acceptance and after that it was over. With what he had in school during our glory years--2006-2008, they were good student athletes. Jim Grobe could not get the same kids in school in the late 2000's up until he was fired in 2013. There might have been other things also with coaches, but there are far more things going in in far other sports.

Baseball had this going on back with George Greer in the early 2000's. Wake shut down his juco stuff over curriculum and books and there was absolutely nothing wrong. Some were the same books out in the jucos that we were using in our own Wake Forest classrooms. We just had our own pissing contest going and didn't want to allow jucos--therefore no more jucos in any sport. Didn't matter that they caused no trouble and were graduating??? Then came the Hooks Field lights and Martha Allman & Bob Mills and their trouble over that. End of story. 3 ACC titles 600 wins, just got inducted in our HOF. 1 losing season and our A.D. saw fit to fire him??..............boy, don't we wish he had seen fit to fire his own boy Jeff Bz after 1 losing season??????...........................

But our athletic troubles start & end with RW not going to bat against Martha Allman and Nathan O Hatch and standing up for the athletic department and winning some concessions for his own department. That is just he way it is.