UVA post game thoughts - venting or whatever

[ChrisL68]

So 3.6 seconds with a defender in the lane and he managed a heave from half court.

As shown there, it took them almost a second just to corral the hot rebound and establish position on the floor. If the guy passes to an outlet, they are going to have to catch and shoot, or the rebounder can get to half court and heave.

Does anybody have an example where a FT was rebounded with 4 seconds or less and that team got anywhere near the paint with the ball? I find it highly unlikely.

 

[ChrisL68]

Bullshit. Some slow chick took 42 steps to cruise to the basket from just outside the paint with zero passes in 4.4 seconds. C'mon. Big rebounds, outlet to Brogdon, he EASILY gets to the paint in 4 seconds unless someone stops him.

Big rebounds gets it to Brogdon and he has to catch and shoot before the clock runs out.

 

[DCDeac]

4 seconds is a lot of time. Not going to scour youtube for a perfect example, a girl doing it in 4.4 from where a free throw rebound would land is plenty of proof that it isn't some kind of impossible thing.

If the missed free throw is simply tipped, the game is probably over. Not disputing that. Up 2 a lot of coaches rebound because a freak over-the-back call doesn't lose the game. Up 1 it's a tougher call, but it's not some obvious coaching thing Manning just missed. It's pure hindsight second guessing. Criticizing it is even more ridiculous because they got up a horrible shot from a non-shooter that was wildly off the mark. It's no different than Brodgon drilling a half courter. If Manning puts guys on the line we get that same ridiculous Devin bumping into someone foul and we lose to free throws, Manning would get roasted for that decision instead of this one.

People understand the difference between hindsight and fair criticism, right?

 

[FckVwls]

I told my wife we needed to miss it before BC's 2nd FT. It's pretty clear. Going from up 1 to up 2 points is pretty worthless - the FG attempt is so likely to be a 3. Even more clear in a spot where your win percentage in overtime is well less than 50/50.

But yes, we did a pretty good job on the defensive possession after the FT make. But the results aren't important.

 

[ChrisL68]

Anything can happen, but I have no doubt that the win probability is higher missing that 2nd shot then giving them a chance to inbound it. They could get the ball all the way to the other end of the court with no time elapsing.

Missing it, and everything almost has to go perfectly for them to have a 35 foot running heave. The ball doesn't have to be tipped, the rebound just has to come off hot and not bounce right to the rebounder.

So it isn't hindsight. It is good coaching since it gives your team the best chance to win. That's why Coach K did it with everything on the line.

 

[EagleDeac]

I think Manning has screwed up a million ways, but not gonna criticize for not intentionally missing the free throw as I think reasonable arguments can be made on both sides. I do, however, side with those who believe missing the free throw was the better play. Unless Brogdon secures the rebound himself, there's almost no chance they get the ball up the court for a good shot. Who were the UVA players in position to rebound on Crawford's last free throw?

 

[MichDeac25]

Focusing on the last call when there are so many other issues that lead up to it is really a shame. At best, it's a debatable decision. The replay is up on Watch ESPN. How about going back and watching Wilbekin give up a wide open 3 to Brogdon and then allowing him to run half way up the court unimpeded on the final play?

Also, Wilbekin quickly ran to inbound the ball with 11 seconds in the game and quickly got it to Devin Thomas. Once he was fouled, Devin clearly said to Wilbekin, "I'm supposed to inbound the ball!" Just a massive screw up. Devin missed both. Wilbekin was in there for one purpose, and it wasn't defense and it wasn't to inbound the ball. It was to be a free throw option. To me, this was the biggest play, more so than the final play. It was 70-66 at that point. If Wake goes to the line and makes two, it's about a sure thing. Even 1, to make it a 5 point game, is almost a sure thing. Instead, Wilbekin inbounds it to Devin. Statistically speaking, that is the best FT shooter on the team taking himself out of the equation by inbounding and passing it to our worst FT shooter (only McClinton and Pendergrast are worse). If you want to blame Danny for not taking a TO there to get it right, maybe, but I'm pretty sure that Wilbekin acted so quickly, Danny didn't have time to get the TO in.

Devin had made both free throws at about 45 seconds. That was a bonus. Following that, if any one of our guys made both free throws in the last 40 seconds, it's game over.

 

[mercurydime]

When I woke up this morning, this loss was the very first thing I thought about. So many things that could have been done/have gone differently.

 

[wfu22fan]

Why not call a timeout before the 2nd FT and set up a play where Crawford throws the ball hard off the backboard and have 2 of our guys behind Crawford to get the carom? Just bounce the dang ball off the top of the backboard and it has to come out to the ft line or past it

It has to hit the rim...

 

[wfu22fan]

I mean, here's a girl doing it with only 0.4 seconds more than Brogdon would have had.

That's off of an inbounds pass, not a random rebound which would likey take a second or two to gather and throw a pass. By the time it's caught , time expires.

 

[BlackjackMc]

My thoughts on last nights disappointing loss.

With 8:31 remaining in the game Virginia called for a thirty second time out after a barrage of Deacon 3 pt. goals had given them a 50-36 lead. 36 points in 31+ minutes. The celebration began. Over the remaining 8:31 Virginia scored 36 points by hitting 11-16 field goals and 8-10 from the line. That's an average of over four points a minute. During that period the Deacon players on and off the court continued to mug it up and celebrate. No discipline. No focus. No observed leadership or discipline from the coaches, players or staff to the task at hand. The result was a total meltdown and a complete choke. At the final horn the Deacs (players, coaches and staff) were left with another opportunity to explain the reasons for the loss rather than to celebrate a win. Same crap, different day. It's a forty minute game. Would someone please show enough accountability and responsibility to save the celebration until it's earned and in the books? Just an opinion.

 

[PhDeac]

Focusing on the last call when there are so many other issues that lead up to it is really a shame. At best, it's a debatable decision. The replay is up on Watch ESPN. How about going back and watching Wilbekin give up a wide open 3 to Brogdon and then allowing him to run half way up the court unimpeded on the final play?

Also, Wilbekin quickly ran to inbound the ball with 11 seconds in the game and quickly got it to Devin Thomas. Once he was fouled, Devin clearly said to Wilbekin, "I'm supposed to inbound the ball!" Just a massive screw up. Devin missed both. Wilbekin was in there for one purpose, and it wasn't defense and it wasn't to inbound the ball. It was to be a free throw option. To me, this was the biggest play, more so than the final play. It was 70-66 at that point. If Wake goes to the line and makes two, it's about a sure thing. Even 1, to make it a 5 point game, is almost a sure thing. Instead, Wilbekin inbounds it to Devin. Statistically speaking, that is the best FT shooter on the team taking himself out of the equation by inbounding and passing it to our worst FT shooter (only McClinton and Pendergrast are worse). If you want to blame Danny for not taking a TO there to get it right, maybe, but I'm pretty sure that Wilbekin acted so quickly, Danny didn't have time to get the TO in.

Devin had made both free throws at about 45 seconds. That was a bonus. Following that, if any one of our guys made both free throws in the last 40 seconds, it's game over.

Why was Wilbekin even in the game for Crawford's FTs?

 

[sailordeac]

My thoughts on last nights disappointing loss.

With 8:31 remaining in the game Virginia called for a thirty second time out after a barrage of Deacon 3 pt. goals had given them a 50-36 lead. 36 points in 31+ minutes. The celebration began. Over the remaining 8:31 Virginia scored 36 points by hitting 11-16 field goals and 8-10 from the line. That's an average of over four points a minute. During that period the players on and off the court continued to mug it up and celebrate. No discipline. No focus. No observed leadership or discipline from the coaches, players or staff to the task at hand. The result was a total meltdown and a complete choke. At the final horn the Deacs (players, coaches and staff) were left with another opportunity to explain the reasons for the loss rather than to celebrate a win. Same crap, different day. It's a forty minute game. Would someone please show enough accountability and responsibility to save the celebration until it's earned and in the books? Just an opinion.

very well put

 

[liveanddiedeac]

After a day and a half to stew on it, yes we had one of the epic choke jobs in the history of basketball, but hey it's happened before to other teams too. Also, with our inability to not make free throws, we basically had it coming. So, nothing to do but get over it, hopefully the team learns from it and on to Notre Dame. Either this team will turn it around and finish the season in decent fashion or they won't, either Danny Manning shows he's our long term answer as coach or not, and there just isn't much we can do about any of it right now. Wellman is going to retire one day and better days are somewhere on the horizon, hopefully sooner than later. That's how I'm going to look at it anyway.:noidea:

 

[DCDeac]

Why was Wilbekin even in the game for Crawford's FTs?

Crawford's job was to front Brogdon. Codi and Rondale were the back wings and Devin was inside. So Mitchell was the roaming guard and he'd have to help pick up Brogdon if Crawford got beat or go get Hall otherwise. Putting speed on the floor there isn't all that crazy. If McClinton is in and Hall blows by him straight up the middle they might end up with an open Brogdon 3 to win.

When you watch the replay it looks to me like we were totally focused on Brogdon. Crawford fronted him, Wilbekin sagged off Hall to help. Devin watched him and sagged too long when Codi helped on Hall. It forced a horrible shot from the last person on the floor they wanted shooting it, but the bottom line is they still got a shot from the 3 point line off and that's why we lost.

Still think it was just shitty play. Wilbekin sees Brogdon is on lock down and has time to go get Hall - but he backs completely off him like he's terrified of fouling him. He just sags to 6 feet and watches us lose without putting any pressure on him, even with Manning having just told our team to pressure as soon as they get it in. Codi kinda doubles him but not hard enough to alter the pass. Devin sees his man but doesn't run at him early enough (by a fraction of a second, to be fair)... From a design standpoint, Brogdon being out of the play and zero points Hall dribbling into a double team on the sideline is pretty ideal. But everyone was tentative, we didn't take advantage of it, and the miracle shot dropped.

 

[EagleDeac]

Crawford's job was to front Brogdon. Codi and Rondale were the back wings and Devin was inside. So Mitchell was the roaming guard and he'd have to help pick up Brogdon if Crawford got beat or go get Hall otherwise. Putting speed on the floor there isn't all that crazy. If McClinton is in and Hall blows by him straight up the middle they might end up with an open Brogdon 3 to win.

When you watch the replay it looks to me like we were totally focused on Brogdon. Crawford fronted him, Wilbekin sagged off Hall to help. Devin watched him and sagged too long when Codi helped on Hall. It forced a horrible shot from the last person on the floor they wanted shooting it, but the bottom line is they still got a shot from the 3 point line off and that's why we lost.

Still think it was just shitty play. Wilbekin sees Brogdon is on lock down and has time to go get Hall - but he backs completely off him like he's terrified of fouling him. He just sags to 6 feet and watches us lose without putting any pressure on him, even with Manning having just told our team to pressure as soon as they get it in. Codi kinda doubles him but not hard enough to alter the pass. Devin sees his man but doesn't run at him early enough (by a fraction of a second, to be fair)... From a design standpoint, Brogdon being out of the play and zero points Hall dribbling into a double team on the sideline is pretty ideal. But everyone was tentative, we didn't take advantage of it, and the miracle shot dropped.

You are relentless in the criticism of the players with no accountability for the coach.

 

[Lohengrin]

Too much analysis of the last play. What happened in the prior plays even just 15 seconds earlier are just as important. We were in a death spiral; why was that?

 

[TheTwinAndreBen]

I know some of you listen to the Bill Simmons podcast. (havent read this whole thread so sry if already discussed), but Barkley was the latest guest and went on a two minute rant about how he could never coach bball using the Wake UVA game as an example, breaking down the last 45 secs in detail ("As a coach you are at the mercy of how dumb your players are").

 

[DCDeac]

You are relentless in the criticism of the players with no accountability for the coach.

Not true at all. From day 1 I've said this team should be an NIT team, and if not that lands squarely on Manning. I've been critical of plenty of coaching moves so far. Bad lineups, lack of timeout usage, the misuse of Moore, the overplaying of VanHorn, the lack of preparation for Syracuse and lack of adjustments when Cooney started off hot.

But the posters who feel that coaches essentially play the games themselves - that coaching misses free throws and coaching blows defensive assignments and coaching misses open layups - I've played way too much organized basketball in my life to buy into that garbage. Sometimes players simply play poorly, and I really don't care how the anti-Manning folks try to label me. We built a big lead against a good team. Our offense was deliberate and efficient. We took away most of the things they like to do and made the game uncomfortable for them. There was a lot of good in that game before the meltdown, and it seems like certain posters want to believe when we're good the players are winning and when we're bad the coaches are fucking up. They want to see Manning stomping around and screaming at refs or he's not doing his job. They demand shit like moving Devin to the 3.

Sorry but a lot of it is laughable. Some of it like the above question and what ChrisL was posting about is interesting strategy and I enjoy discussing it. Generally a guy who's been in coaching for as long as Manning has is not going to do something that is just completely idiotic, no matter what certain posters believe.

 

[DownEastDeac]

That's off of an inbounds pass, not a random rebound which would likey take a second or two to gather and throw a pass. By the time it's caught , time expires.

Agreed. There's a reason teams do that thing late in the game where they roll the ball on the inbounds and scoop it up near half court rather than inbound it to the guy standing near the end line.