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Mike Flynn Resigns

Wakeforest22890 said:
Wait, there are people out there who believe the story that Flynn was just acting on his own when talking to the Russian ambassador about sanctions and shortly after that conversation Donald was very complementary on Twitter towards Russia for "doing the right thing" and Flynn was just out there going rogue?

I mean come on guys.
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Who believes that?
 
EatLeadCommie said:
It's self evident that an incoming administration is not speaking for the current administration. This distinction between speaking to and speaking for sure does assume the best of motivations. And are you really so blind as to think Obama was simply speaking to? That he wasn't beginning sentences with "If I'm elected" or "Under my administration"? How is that any different from being somebody in the POTUSE's cabinet and signaling a change in direction? Even if we assume the Constitutionality and enforcement of the Logan Act are possible, attempting to apply it here would not only be a stretch, but also inconsistent to say the least. Every transition team is going to reach out and make overtures. I dare say that every transition team has done just that, at least in modern times, and it starts with those election night phone calls.
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Alright so let's scrap the Logan Act stuff which I agree is bleh.

1. Do you believe Flynn was simply acting on his own when he talked to the Russian ambassador and not been instructed expressly or through channels/insinuation from other people within the Donald cult of personality to do so?

2. What would your reaction be if it turns out that Donald knew about all this a month ago, had the transcripts of the calls, saw that Flynn had in fact discussed the sanctions with Russia, and simply didn't do anything until it became public and evident that this was a major issue?
 
knowell said:
Who believes that?
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I'm really asking, does anyone here believe that?

It seems to be the story that the administration is attempting to put out there. That Flynn was fired not for his conversation but for his lies to Pence.

My position is he didn't need to lie to Pence because Pence and the rest of the administration likely knew exactly what Flynn was doing and knew because they told him to talk to Russia about the sanctions.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Alright so let's scrap the Logan Act stuff which I agree is bleh.

1. Do you believe Flynn was simply acting on his own when he talked to the Russian ambassador and not been instructed expressly or through channels/insinuation from other people within the Donald cult of personality to do so?

2. What would your reaction be if it turns out that Donald knew about all this a month ago, had the transcripts of the calls, saw that Flynn had in fact discussed the sanctions with Russia, and simply didn't do anything until it became public and evident that this was a major issue?
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If you scrap the Logan Act stuff, what is the problem?
 
knowell said:
If you scrap the Logan Act stuff, what is the problem?
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I mean the prosecution specifically for Flynn. I think it's bleh because I think there needs to be an investigation where he gets immunity and tells when everyone knew what about his phone call with Russia.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I mean the prosecution specifically for Flynn. I think it's bleh because I think there needs to be an investigation where he gets immunity and tells when everyone knew what about his phone call with Russia.
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bottom line: there needs to be an investigation


jesus H christ the american people paid to investigate fucking Roger Clemens but this Russian debacle is NBD?
 
even if you scrap the logan act stuff (and i haven't seen a clear answer as to whether what flynn did was legal or not, debatable) effectively pardoning russia for meddling in an american election which helped you gain the presidency leads to its own questions. and it was such a big priority to do so you couldn't even wait til you took office.
 
Do I have this timeline right?

Obama announces sanctions against Russia
Intelligence community and foreign experts in Washington expect Russia to make an announcement condemning, or announcing some retaliation
When they don't get an announcement or even aggressive posturing from Putin/Russia, the community starts sniffing around to figure out why there was a reprieve
They find that within 24 hours of the Obama announcement of sanctions Flynn was in contact with the Russian ambassador
The transcript of that call is obtained which presumably includes a discussion of sanctions (nine independent corroborating sources said that sanctions were discussed)
Flynn says they weren't.
Pence says publicly they weren't discussed.
DOJ tells the administration that sanctions were indeed discussed
A month later this story breaks publicly and only then does the White House do anything about Flynn when just three days prior the press secretary stood up in front of the world and said that Donald had no knowledge of a conversation between Flynn and Russia about sanctions.
Today the same press secretary says that Donald had been carefully monitoring the Flynn/Russia situation and has known for a month.

Am I off or am I missing something for now?
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Do I have this timeline right?

Obama announces sanctions against Russia
Intelligence community and foreign experts in Washington expect Russia to make an announcement condemning, or announcing some retaliation
When they don't get an announcement or even aggressive posturing from Putin/Russia, the community starts sniffing around to figure out why there was a reprieve
They find that within 24 hours of the Obama announcement of sanctions Flynn was in contact with the Russian ambassador
The transcript of that call is obtained which presumably includes a discussion of sanctions (nine independent corroborating sources said that sanctions were discussed)
Flynn says they weren't.
Pence says publicly they weren't discussed.
DOJ tells the administration that sanctions were indeed discussed
A month later this story breaks publicly and only then does the White House do anything about Flynn when just three days prior the press secretary stood up in front of the world and said that Donald had no knowledge of a conversation between Flynn and Russia about sanctions.
Today the same press secretary says that Donald had been carefully monitoring the Flynn/Russia situation and has known for a month.
American people took the L and moved on

Am I off or am I missing something for now?
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FIFY
 
Seems off of the information we have now (I know...let's let the facts come out - which means we should all agree about the need for an investigation) that best case Donald flat-out lied when he said he didn't know about the conversation. Worst case Donald and the administration knew about the conversation because they set it up and meddled with foreign policy while Obama was still the president and undermined his announced sanctions because he was cozying up in bed with his friend, master, and acting president of the United States Putin.
 
Oh and during all this, even though the administration almost certainly knew Flynn talked about sanctions with Russia when he wasn't supposed to, Flynn continued his position and for the last few weeks was in contact with a bunch of foreign leaders and sat in on the daily presidential briefings.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Alright so let's scrap the Logan Act stuff which I agree is bleh.

1. Do you believe Flynn was simply acting on his own when he talked to the Russian ambassador and not been instructed expressly or through channels/insinuation from other people within the Donald cult of personality to do so?

2. What would your reaction be if it turns out that Donald knew about all this a month ago, had the transcripts of the calls, saw that Flynn had in fact discussed the sanctions with Russia, and simply didn't do anything until it became public and evident that this was a major issue?
Click to expand...

1. I don't know his relationship with the Russian ambassador and if they spoke casually at times. It would not be unusual for high ranking government individuals to know other high ranking government individuals. That having been said, it is much more likely than not that he was instructed to make overtures to the Russians or volunteered himself to do so. Whether than means "Discuss sanctions" or "Tell him things will be different under the new administration," I don't know. I'm fine with either being the case, as both would be legitimate points of discussion.

2. My reaction would be what do the transcripts say? Was Flynn confronted with them? Any inconsistencies between what Flynn told them and what they already knew? Were any inconsistencies addressed and were they addressed sufficiently?

I wouldn't be surprised if Flynn decided that any role in this administration is a headache not worth having and that he'd be better off enjoying his military retirement than shortening his life expectancy dealing with the toxicity of DC. If there is something nefarious here, I'm not seeing it. Barring some kind of revelation where Flynn says, "Hey, Trump wanted me to thank your government for your assistance in rigging the electronic vote machines," it seems that whatever scandal assigned to this consists either of Trump incompetence or Trump not giving a shit.
 
Flynn was asked to resign per most reports coming out the last couple hours, so the last paragraph likely isn't on point. Thanks for the responses to the questions though.
 
And while I can't even fathom how someone would believe there's likely nothing nefarious here, I appreciate your candor.
 
I'm almost to the point where Putin could come out and say "we rigged your election and Donald asked us to, it was great" and plenty of people on the right would say "well I don't see anything wrong with that because it just means Donald had America's best interest in his heart to prevent Clinton from being elected. I appreciate Putin's transparency and damn is he a strong leader. That's what we really needed!"
 
But then again if someone told me a week ago that it would turn out Flynn talked to Russia about sanctions, lied about it, still wasn't fired, and then it came to light that the administration actually knew about, I would have expected there to be some sort of unity in condemnation from across the political spectrum.

I should've known better. Some day I'll learn perhaps.
 
I am not sure what is really the issue here. Did Flynn do something prosecutable? Seems most think he did not. Are we concerned that someone lied to the public about national security issues? If so, this seems like a standard that has never been applied before.

If a politician ain't lyin, he ain't tryin. Or is that just an SEC thing?
 
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