ImTheCaptain
I disagree with you
is that really that surprising
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Deacsfan27
Well-known member
I don't mean to boil this down to Dems vs. Pubs because it's way more in-depth than that, but in this case it seems overwhelmingly obvious that the Republicans don't give a flying fuck about what the healthcare bill is, or does, as long as it replaces the Affordable Care Act.
I get that they are trying to do what they were elected to do ("repeal and replace Obamacare"), which I have no doubt many people voted as a single issue cause to get these Senators in office, but at this point by doing what their electorate wants them to do (repeal and replace), it will actually hurt the people who voted for these Senators in the first place more than the ACA currently is. Certainly a very interesting paradox of sorts.
This also gets into a bit of what Pod Save America touched on in a podcast last week when they discussed that Republicans recently, as a whole, tend to promise things that don't make fiscal sense, but since facts don't really matter anymore people just eat that shit up and vote for them anyway.* The problem with that, obviously, is that when they actually have to legislate and live up to what was promised, they simply cannot do it.
It's the same problem that Clinton had with trying to meet Sanders in the primary. No matter what she says Bernie can always go left of her because, while he is trying to get elected, he is more about pushing a progressive and liberal agenda. His propositions don't have to make fiscal sense because he knows that he likely isn't winning the nomination. Clinton figured she would have to provide the numbers for any legislation and ideas that she presented during the primary in the General Election, so she wasn't as bold. As it turns out it didn't matter because the public loved what Trump was doing with broad generalizations and promises with absolutely no idea of how to make it work.
It's something that Democrats may need to think about for '18 and '20. Make more promises that they may not be able to keep and just keep passing the buck? Or campaign on things that they realistically think they can get done if elected, but lower their chances to make it into office in the first place.
*I am sure that BKF or somebody else will be by to tell me that Democrats have been doing this for years with the African American community and the low SES populace, so I'll just go ahead and say it now.
I get that they are trying to do what they were elected to do ("repeal and replace Obamacare"), which I have no doubt many people voted as a single issue cause to get these Senators in office, but at this point by doing what their electorate wants them to do (repeal and replace), it will actually hurt the people who voted for these Senators in the first place more than the ACA currently is. Certainly a very interesting paradox of sorts.
This also gets into a bit of what Pod Save America touched on in a podcast last week when they discussed that Republicans recently, as a whole, tend to promise things that don't make fiscal sense, but since facts don't really matter anymore people just eat that shit up and vote for them anyway.* The problem with that, obviously, is that when they actually have to legislate and live up to what was promised, they simply cannot do it.
It's the same problem that Clinton had with trying to meet Sanders in the primary. No matter what she says Bernie can always go left of her because, while he is trying to get elected, he is more about pushing a progressive and liberal agenda. His propositions don't have to make fiscal sense because he knows that he likely isn't winning the nomination. Clinton figured she would have to provide the numbers for any legislation and ideas that she presented during the primary in the General Election, so she wasn't as bold. As it turns out it didn't matter because the public loved what Trump was doing with broad generalizations and promises with absolutely no idea of how to make it work.
It's something that Democrats may need to think about for '18 and '20. Make more promises that they may not be able to keep and just keep passing the buck? Or campaign on things that they realistically think they can get done if elected, but lower their chances to make it into office in the first place.
*I am sure that BKF or somebody else will be by to tell me that Democrats have been doing this for years with the African American community and the low SES populace, so I'll just go ahead and say it now.
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2&2 Slider To Leyritz
Well-known member
Do you really believe that she did read the entire thing before she voted on it?
Deacsfan27
Well-known member
This is actually a good question---what are the Republican Senators who are planning on voting for this bill thinking?
Are they trying to save their jobs and future of getting reelected?
Do they really think the proposed legislation is better than the ACA?
Do they hate Obama and want to stick it to him?
Probably a combination of the three.
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myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
Somebody remind Doofus that the ACA passed with zero Republican votes. Even when Dems had the guarenteed opportunity to pass their own bill they still only passed Romneycare 2.0. All this centrist protesting about pragmatism is just so much bullshit. Americans want populist legislisation and messaging. Instead the party is run by a bunch of coastal plama austerity yuppies controlled by corporate donor interests.
2&2 Slider To Leyritz
Well-known member
And the fourth, which is that they are doing what they were elected to do. Which is somewhat rare in this political environment. Obamacare sucks, has always sucked, and will always suck. That isn't going to change. It's most popular point, no exclusions for preexisting conditions, is something that plenty of states had already enacted decades before but for some reason is seen as the prime virtue of Obamacare. For the vast majority of the population, coverage was better and less expensive pre-Obamacare. And Obamacare has done nothing, absolutely nothing, with regard to actually improving health despite Ph's spin on Pelosi's quote. It should be called Obamasurance and the debate would be much simpler.
leftcoastdeac
Robert O'Kelley
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"You know, I could maybe give you 10 reasons why this bill shouldn't be considered," the Iowa Republican said. "But Republicans campaigned on this so often that you have a responsibility to carry out what you said in the campaign. That's pretty much as much of a reason as the substance of the bill."
- Chuck Grassley
It passed with ZERO Republicans because they hated Obama. It didn't matter to them that it was basically a combination Romneycare and the American Enterprise Institute's plan of the 1990s. The GOP refused to even participate in the Gang of 8 they demanded Obama create. The GOP refused to participate in over 25 Congressional hearings about ACA.
The GOP is lying out their asses saying Obama didn't want them to participate. It was 100% their choice.
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
Who in the world ever believed that pragmatism won elections? That goes against basic psychology.
ImTheCaptain
I disagree with you
pretty sure "say anything to win" is pragmatic
avalon
Antwan Scott
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Best guess, they know they need the base to show up for the midterms since midterms tend to have such low turnout, and they are likely getting pressure from donors as well.
Crazy part is that this pushes the funds to the states starting in 2020. So any insanity that will come from states trying to implement their own individual healthcare plan will be in an election year.
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Deacsfan27
Well-known member
2and2, do you believe this bill is better than the Affordable Care Act? If so, can you please state why, in what facets, and how it is better? If you do not believe it is better than the Affordable Care Act, or is the exact same as the ACA then why in the world would you support it?
Just because the Affordable Care Act "sucks" does not mean there are bills that are much more harmful than the ACA.
This also begs the question---if a Senator is elected to do X, but doing X would actually harm the constituents way more than not doing X, then what should the Senator do?
I cannot fathom a world where somebody could possibly believe that Republican Senators are "doing what they were elected to do," unless you believe that the Senators are merely puppets of the constituents rather than intelligent people with rational thinking skills. If it is the former then we might as well elect people who have average to below average IQ and common sense because they will represent the will of the people are simply fall in line like sheep.
They have failed so miserably at this point to "repeal and replace Obamacare" that even after 7 years of thinking they are STILL having to try to force through a bill that pretty much nobody in the health care profession likes, solely so they can say they repealed the current health care system, even with a simply majority vote. Comical.
You may think that is admirable, but I think it is just people being shitty human beings at the expense of saving their own ass.
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DistrictDeacon
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Did she read the entire thing? Possible to unlikely.
Did she have her staffer who was assigned to healthcare read the entire thing and provide her with detailed notes? Most likely.
Did she go out to the press and say anything close to "I haven't read this"? Absolutely not. But rubes going to rube.
2&2 Slider To Leyritz
Well-known member
I don't care if it is better or not. Obamacare is Bzz-level bad. If this new one is somehow worse, then all that does is get us closer to rock bottom and hopefully some actual beneficial reform. If that reform never comes then we have nobody to blame but ourselves for putting Obama in that position to start the flush.
Deacsfan27
Well-known member
This isn't a fucking game. Of course it fucking matters. There are millions of people's health care at stake. How can it not matter to you if the new bill would eliminate insurance for hundreds of thousands/millions of people?
Only a complete idiot would support potential legislation that is worse than current legislation already on the books. Either that or you are just a complete shit human being with no moral compass at all other than wanting to stick it to a former president who gives no fucks about what you think.
2&2 Slider To Leyritz
Well-known member
Where's Biff?
Do you realize what what would happen if I handed in my homework in your handwriting? I'll get kicked out of school.
But apparently not Congress.
2&2 Slider To Leyritz
Well-known member
Wrong, he got you again, you fall for it every goddamn time. Nobody's health care is at stake. Their insurance is at stake. Hospitals aren't going to start locking their doors if Obamacare goes away. It will go back to exactly as it was before, with those who can pay subsidizing those who can't via outrageous charges. And then hopefully someone with some sense will put forth a proposal that actually makes some sense.
ImTheCaptain
I disagree with you
people expect senators and congress people to read legislation in their entirety? do you expect Trump to do the same?
2&2 Slider To Leyritz
Well-known member
They write the important ones. And this was, without a doubt, Pelosi's most important vote of her career. It would take her a day or two to read it. But she can't be bothered? Again, if that is who we elect, then we deserve the shit consequences.