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Danny Manning Credibility Watch

Ayo said:
Chaundee's lack of ball handling ability is just staggering. Just don't know how you're ranked that highly while lacking such a big part of the game as a perimeter player.
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He was hyped as a guy who could play three positions too.
 
Here's the problem with the "huge loss" argument for giving Manning a break. If the losses from last year are truly so huge, what does it say about his coaching that we barely squeaked our way into the post season with all of that talent? You can't have it both ways Manning sympathizers.

Does it really matter that he might prove to be a good recruiter if we can't actually play to the potential of the talent we have? Should we have been a better team last year? Don't we have more talent than many of the teams we've lost to this year?
 
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Yep. Also it’s college basketball. There’s always huge losses.
 
RacerDeac said:
Here's the problem with the "huge loss" argument for giving Manning a break. If the losses from last year are truly so huge, what does it say about his coaching that we barely squeaked our way into the post season with all of that talent? You can't have it both ways Manning sympathizers.

Does it really matter that he might prove to be a good recruiter if we can't actually play to the potential of the talent we have? Should we have been a better team last year? Don't we have more talent than many of the teams we've lost to this year?
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Yeah the first four losses should not happen regardless. But the return of Collins and Dinos would’ve made a huge difference. Last year we were missing a SF that could play D on an opposing team’s 3. This year, if we returned everyone we would’ve replaced Arians with Chaundee (who would’ve gotten way more minutes because he wouldn’t be expected to contribute a lot on offense, focus on D) if we had a a guy like Chaundee last year we win more games, which would’ve been the team this year (think of games where we got shredded by an opposing 3 that we would’ve won, like Duke/Kennard for example). Last year’s starters plus Chaundee at the 3 this season would’ve been very very good - as Chaundee was the missing piece (defense on the 3).*

*Assuming Manning’s substitution patterns would be good
 
CharlotteDeac1 said:
Yeah the first four losses should not happen regardless. But the return of Collins and Dinos would’ve made a huge difference. Last year we were missing a SF that could play D on an opposing team’s 3. This year, if we returned everyone we would’ve replaced Arians with Chaundee (who would’ve gotten way more minutes because he wouldn’t be expected to contribute a lot on offense, focus on D) if we had a a guy like Chaundee last year we win more games, which would’ve been the team this year (think of games where we got shredded by an opposing 3 that we would’ve won, like Duke/Kennard for example). Last year’s starters plus Chaundee at the 3 this season would’ve been very very good - as Chaundee was the missing piece (defense on the 3).*

*Assuming Manning’s substitution patterns would be good
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So basically the 2016 recruiting class was a colossal failure by Manning. Cool, glad we're on the same page.
 
PhDeac said:
Yep. Also it’s college basketball. There’s always huge losses.
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Well, we are Wake Forest, it's been since what? 2009 or 2005 since we've had 'huge' losses. When you have barely enough talent to make the play-in game, losing a 1st round draft pick and a solid starter is a huge loss.
 
Ayo said:
So basically the 2016 recruiting class was a colossal failure by Manning. Cool, glad we're on the same page.
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Yeah I mean I don’t necessarily disagree with this. I don’t see what this has to do with what I posted but it’s not untrue outside Childress, who I think gets a really bad rep from people here because they’re frustrated. Donovan Mitchell may prove useful at some point but I’m not positive about that.
 
CharlotteDeac1 said:
Yeah I mean I don’t necessarily disagree with this. I don’t see what this has to do with what I posted but it’s not untrue outside Childress, who I think gets a really bad rep from people here because they’re frustrated. Donovan Mitchell may prove useful at some point but I’m not positive about that.
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Childress plays hard and is a good defender but he was shooting like shit for about 5 or 6 games there. He played very well tonight.
 
CharlotteDeac1 said:
Yeah I mean I don’t necessarily disagree with this. I don’t see what this has to do with what I posted but it’s not untrue outside Childress, who I think gets a really bad rep from people here because they’re frustrated. Donovan Mitchell may prove useful at some point but I’m not positive about that.
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You're saying "if only we had Chaundee last year." Well, maybe Manning should've recruited one like him in 2016. Instead, we ended up with Childress, who was always coming here; Mitchell, who might end up being a decent role player by his senior year, maybe; and let's face it, two complete whiffs in SJM and Richard Washington. Washington, remember, Manning offered early and everyone was drinking the "oh, he must be good, Danny offered him so early" Kool Aid. Once the trio of Crawford, Woods, and Doral leave, I'm just not sold at this point on where the scoring will be coming from (outside of Hoard, who looks like he can fill it up to some degree). If we land EJ Montgomery, maybe I'll feel a little better. My point is, yeah, obviously the losses of Collins and Dinos hurt. Obviously. But they were exacerbated by the 2016 class just being plain terrible. And I don't wanna hear the "but we had to go after Giles" crap. That class stunk.
 
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Ayo said:
You're saying "if only we had Chaundee last year." Well, maybe Manning should've recruited one like him in 2016. Instead, we ended up with Childress, who was always coming here; Mitchell, who might end up being a decent role player by his senior year, maybe; and let's face it, two complete whiffs in SJM and Richard Washington. Washington, remember, Manning offered early and everyone was drinking the "oh, he must be good, Danny offered him so early" Kool Aid. Once the trio of Crawford, Woods, and Doral leave, I'm just not sold at this point on where the scoring will be coming from (outside of Hoard, who looks like he can fill it up to some degree). If we land EJ Montgomery, maybe I'll feel a little better. My point is, yeah, obviously the losses of Collins and Dinos hurt. Obviously. But they were exacerbated by the 2016 class just being plain terrible. And I don't wanna hear the "but we had to go after Giles" crap. That class stunk.
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Danny Manning is supposedly a good recruiter, but that 2016 class was [Redacted] level.
 
Ayo said:
You're saying "if only we had Chaundee last year." Well, maybe Manning should've recruited one like him in 2016. Instead, we ended up with Childress, who was always coming here; Mitchell, who might end up being a decent role player by his senior year, maybe; and let's face it, two complete whiffs in SJM and Richard Washington. Washington, remember, Manning offered early and everyone was drinking the "oh, he must be good, Danny offered him so early" Kool Aid. Once the trio of Crawford, Woods, and Doral leave, I'm just not sold at this point on where the scoring will be coming from (outside of Hoard, who looks like he can fill it up to some degree). If we land EJ Montgomery, maybe I'll feel a little better. My point is, yeah, obviously the losses of Collins and Dinos hurt. Obviously. But they were exacerbated by the 2016 class just being plain terrible. And I don't wanna hear the "but we had to go after Giles" crap. That class stunk.
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That’s not what I said. I said it was the position we were missing last year and if the guys came back this year then we’d have a complete starting lineup top to bottom. I wasn’t saying “if only we had him last year” - I said we were missing his position last year. This year with the return of everyone he would’ve filled the hole we had last year.

Agree on SJM and Wash, busts. Chill I think will be good for us, Mitchell I agree can be a decent role player on a good team.

Woods has offered us nothing since his injury. Crawford takes a lot of shit so people can’t have it both ways - that he loses us games and that we’ll be so much worse without him. Moore is greatly improved and we’ll need to recruit a 5 next class. As I said before, the team will be very different next year than this in terms of offensive production and hopefully we’ll have the guys to be defensive-oriented.
 
Right, if Manning had recruited better in 2016, that hole would've been filled on last year's team.

And I'm not as negative on Crawford as some on here. As frustrating as he is, he's the only one on this team who can create his own shot. I guess you could argue Childress, but relying on Childress to regularly create shots, I don't think that goes well most of the time. This team would be worse without Crawford than it is with him. I guess all I'm saying is Hoard better be really good. Because we'll be heavily relying on him to generate offense after next year. I just don't see many shot creators going forward. But hey, maybe the mysterious Jamie Lewis, whom no one knows anything about, will end up being that guy. Or Sharone Wright will play way above his ranking. I don't know, not gonna bet on it.
 
Ayo said:
Right, if Manning had recruited better in 2016, that hole would've been filled on last year's team.

And I'm not as negative on Crawford as some on here. As frustrating as he is, he's the only one on this team who can create his own shot. I guess you could argue Childress, but relying on Childress to regularly create shots, I don't think that goes well most of the time. This team would be worse without Crawford than it is with him. I guess all I'm saying is Hoard better be really good. Because we'll be heavily relying on him to generate offense after next year. I just don't see many shot creators going forward. But hey, maybe the mysterious Jamie Lewis, whom no one knows anything about, will end up being that guy. Or Sharone Wright will play way above his ranking. I don't know, not gonna bet on it.
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Yeah I don’t think we’re really disagreeing with each other. We should’ve known to recruit a capable small forward, which even getting Giles wouldn’t have filled. I’m definitely not low on Crawford and know we’d be significantly worse without him - my only gripe with him is that he’s unclutch (as is the rest of our team). Our offense this year hasn’t been good since ACC and we’re missing a slasher, which I’m expecting Hoard to fill. I also strongly believe we’ll be much better defensively next year and that our offense will come as a result of good defense - fast breaks and playing fast off rebounds. I think this team will be extremely different on all fronts next years compared to this year (thankfully).

I’m not sure what to expect from Mucius. He seems to be ready defensively but I don’t know much about his offensive game. Really athletic and can be a good back up to Hoard at the 3 and should give defensive minutes.

Wright is interesting. A couple of the top players from their league last year have gone to school and performed really well - one being Cartier Diarra at Kansas state. I feel like their league and his AAU circuit are under scouted. He is definitely a top player from their league and would be great to get the same type of production from him as Diarra. From scouting reports, it seems he is good offensively and has a really quick first step but he may need some work defensively. He has the measurable to be good defensively, though. If Crawford doesn’t leave as some thought at the beginning of the season then he shouldn’t be thrust into a position that we need him to produce a lot freshman year.
 
Ayo said:
Right, if Manning had recruited better in 2016, that hole would've been filled on last year's team.

And I'm not as negative on Crawford as some on here. As frustrating as he is, he's the only one on this team who can create his own shot. I guess you could argue Childress, but relying on Childress to regularly create shots, I don't think that goes well most of the time. This team would be worse without Crawford than it is with him. I guess all I'm saying is Hoard better be really good. Because we'll be heavily relying on him to generate offense after next year. I just don't see many shot creators going forward. But hey, maybe the mysterious Jamie Lewis, whom no one knows anything about, will end up being that guy. Or Sharone Wright will play way above his ranking. I don't know, not gonna bet on it.
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Starting a lot of freshman will either yield current Kentucky or current Pitt type results. Luckily for us, we have a great class coming in; however, I can see the class playing like freshman and failing to develop. So far, Manning has successfully developed Dino’s and Collins, but I cannot point to another player who has developed in to an ACC caliber player. It is going to be tough to make and stay above .500 this year, but next year I would hope we could at least fill out an NIT bracket.
 
RaleighTriad said:
Starting a lot of freshman will either yield current Kentucky or current Pitt type results. Luckily for us, we have a great class coming in; however, I can see the class playing like freshman and failing to develop. So far, Manning has successfully developed Dino’s and Collins, but I cannot point to another player who has developed in to an ACC caliber player. It is going to be tough to make and stay above .500 this year, but next year I would hope we could at least fill out an NIT bracket.
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If we only make the NIT next year with the talent we’ll have then Manning shouldn’t be our coach anymore
 
CharlotteDeac1 said:
If we only make the NIT next year with the talent we’ll have then Manning shouldn’t be our coach anymore
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I agree, but I get nervous about putting that kind of focus on freshman when we have year to develop guards who can get the forwards the ball consistently. We have a good front court but guard play kills us.
 
RaleighTriad said:
Starting a lot of freshman will either yield current Kentucky or current Pitt type results. Luckily for us, we have a great class coming in; however, I can see the class playing like freshman and failing to develop. So far, Manning has successfully developed Dino’s and Collins, but I cannot point to another player who has developed in to an ACC caliber player. It is going to be tough to make and stay above .500 this year, but next year I would hope we could at least fill out an NIT bracket.
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It is sad that WF has fallen so far that we the fan base are hoping to make the NIT with this team coming back while adding a highly rated recruiting class. Sad but true. If Manning can't get this team in the field of 68 next year then it's time to quit kicking the can down the road and clean house.
 
RaleighTriad said:
I agree, but I get nervous about putting that kind of focus on freshman when we have year to develop guards who can get the forwards the ball consistently. We have a good front court but guard play kills us.
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I think the guards we currently have (craw and chill) have the ability to get the forwards the ball consistently. I just don’t think they’re good enough to be the heavy focal point of an NCAA tournament team. Next year a lot of pressure should be lifted off of them and they won’t be forced to produce the way they’re needed to this year.
 
Thought I'd add a little levity to the discussion.

Despite the fact that it appears we should improve defensively next year, it won't happen. Defense is often the last skill a player improves. Freshmen are usually a defensive liability. Defense hasn't improved under Manning. The last time defense was a valued commodity at Wake, next year's freshmen were infants.

Player rotations will continue to puzzle unless you have paid attention. DM will value his upperclassmen and their experience beyond reason. Expect Crawford, Woods, Childress and Moore to get major minutes. They could be a true asset. But they won't be quicker, bigger or know how to win. This season is evidence.

Ron Wellman remains the AD. He just gave DM an extension and I doubt he views next season as a make or break year for him. Despite the wailing, torn shirts and gnashing of teeth arising from this board. Years and years of evidence to support this belief.

If next year's BB team fails to meet "expectations" and DM is relieved of his responsibilities, those calling for his removal (now and then) better pray for a miracle. Otherwise, Ron Wellman will get another opportunity to hire a BB coach at WFU. I keep this fact in mind every time DM shows a wart or three. Patience with DM makes sense when RW is considered.

Just an opinion. Actually several opinions.
 
Dino cared about defense. His teams were 58th, 22nd, and 29th in defensive efficiency.

Truth is, the Manning-In case is basically that he’s Dino. Good recruiter, bad tactical coach, good at installing a system on one end of the court. Worth 8 years of rebuilding? No...

I am fine with Manning getting another year. Makes the job more attractive imo, especially since we have Manning a stupidly timed extension (just as we did with Dino). But it also gives time for Wellman to retire.

We need to hire a coach with a proven record of building teams that win games. Not another Wellman cut-rate special of a coach who only won games with teams built by other coaches ([Redacted]) or who only had a winning record for half a season (Manning) or who never won at all (Dino).
 
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