Stay John Collins!

[PhDeac]

I made the simple argument that Manning should have played Collins more and thus Collins did not get as far in his development as he could have. Let's just stick with that.

 

[thatguy2016]

Manning either has an exceptional eye for big man talent or is an exceptional developer of big men. Or both. Either way he deserves credit.

And if the argument is that Manning simply got lucky, then your argument that Manning failed to develop Collins is really a statement that Collins should be even better than he is now if he had proper coaching.

Is there a historical precedent for a three star big man recruit (from the U.S.) playing better as a 20 year old than Collins is playing right now?

Tim Duncan, US Virgin Islands

of course Manning should get credit for Collins

he should also get credit for getting Wake to the tournament last year

and he should get credit for Wake failing to play defense in the tournament (ACC and NCAA) last year

and he should get credit for Wake failing to have a top 100 defense for 4 years now

I like the talent coming in, but the emphasis on defense had better improve, or we won't be playing any ACC or NCAA tournament games on Saturday or Sunday, which is where we need to be

 

[RChildress107]

I made the simple argument that Manning should have played Collins more and thus Collins did not get as far in his development as he could have. Let's just stick with that.

That simple argument has logically necessary conclusions, among them that Collins could be even better than he is now and that Manning should be criticized for not getting him there.

Part of defending an argument is defending the conclusions that argument leads to. If you aren’t willing to adopt, much less defend, those conclusions then take the L and move on. If that’s what you are doing then let’s indeed leave it at that.

 

[RChildress107]

Tim Duncan, US Virgin Islands

of course Manning should get credit for Collins

he should also get credit for getting Wake to the tournament last year

and he should get credit for Wake failing to play defense in the tournament (ACC and NCAA) last year

and he should get credit for Wake failing to have a top 100 defense for 4 years now

I like the talent coming in, but the emphasis on defense had better improve, or we won't be playing any ACC or NCAA tournament games on Saturday or Sunday, which is where we need to be

Agree with all of that. And shame on me for not carving out the one guy I was intending to carve out.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

Tim Duncan, US Virgin Islands

of course Manning should get credit for Collins

he should also get credit for getting Wake to the tournament last year

and he should get credit for Wake failing to play defense in the tournament (ACC and NCAA) last year

and he should get credit for Wake failing to have a top 100 defense for 4 years now

I like the talent coming in, but the emphasis on defense had better improve, or we won't be playing any ACC or NCAA tournament games on Saturday or Sunday, which is where we need to be

Agreed. As I said before, it's okay to recognize both positives and negatives about Manning.

 

[PhDeac]

That simple argument has logically necessary conclusions, among them that Collins could be even better than he is now and that Manning should be criticized for not getting him there.

Part of defending an argument is defending the conclusions that argument leads to. If you aren’t willing to adopt, much less defend, those conclusions then take the L and move on. If that’s what you are doing then let’s indeed leave it at that.

Yep. I definitely agree with that. I have adopted and defended those perfectly logical conclusions. I'm not going to take an L because you and Charlotte seem to be the only ones who disagree with it.

 

[birdman]

So all the Kansas Data points mean diddley?

Yeah, RJ showed me some of that data, and they are supportive of the notion that Manning has a special talent, but I don't think they are conclusive. He wasn't the HC so I'm not sure what credit to attribute to Self v Manning.

 

[birdman]

I’m not a huge fan of Occam’s razor but I think it applies here.

Either Manning found the once in a generation 3* big man that was destined to become an NBA starter quality player in 2 years; or

He gets credit for some combo of identifying/recruiting/developing Collins.

When your sample size is too small to run statistical analysis, common sense can be a decent stand in.

Sure he gets credit for at least one of those things. But Odom did the same thing, so it happens on occasion, and we can't be certain Manning is exceptional with just one data point.

 

[RChildress107]

Sure he gets credit for at least one of those things. But Odom did the same thing, so it happens on occasion, and we can't be certain Manning is exceptional with just one data point.

Not sure Odom discovering Duncan is a good comp for Manning discovering Collins. Duncan grew up on an island not known for producing basketball talent, didn’t start playing until age 14, and grew up pre-YouTube. It’s not that all the recruiting gurus and blue bloods missed on Duncan, it’s that they had no reason to know about him.

None of those apply to Collins.

 

[birdman]

Agreed. As I said before, it's okay to recognize both positives and negatives about Manning.

This feels like a straw man argument. I'm not sure anyone refuses to recognize any of the positives or any of the negatives, different people just have different emphases on some of the positives or the negatives. For me the negatives are more glaring than the positives and, while recognizing uncertainty, I don't see a lot of potential for change or improvement. The things that manning has demonstrated he is probably good at (recruiting and post-player development) aren't enough by themselves or he isn't good enough at them to establish stability, like we had in the 90's and 00's. Personally I'd rather we cut bait sooner rather than later because I predict that it is not going to work out with Manning more than 2 more seasons. It is not a matter of missing the data on Manning it is a matter if differing interpretations and preferred actions. Some folks are more conservative/patient and can handle waiting, some folks are less conservative and are ready to move on.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

This feels like a straw man argument. I'm not sure anyone refuses to recognize any of the positives or any of the negatives, different people just have different emphases on some of the positives or the negatives. For me the negatives are more glaring than the positives and, while recognizing uncertainty, I don't see a lot of potential for change or improvement. The things that manning has demonstrated he is probably good at (recruiting and post-player development) aren't enough by themselves or he isn't good enough at them to establish stability, like we had in the 90's and 00's. Personally I'd rather we cut bait sooner rather than later because I predict that it is not going to work out with Manning more than 2 more seasons. It is not a matter of missing the data on Manning it is a matter if differing interpretations and preferred actions. Some folks are more conservative/patient and can handle waiting, some folks are less conservative and are ready to move on.

No, there are definitely a lot of people here who either can't see Manning's strengths/positives or willfully choose to not recognize them. Many posters here blame everything bad on Manning and everything positive either on the other team doing something wrong or the only the players. Definitely not a straw man - at least in terms of the boards.

 

[PhDeac]

birdman laid out a simple, cohesive argument, and Charlotte can't get out of his own way to understand it.

 

[Strickland33]

No, there are definitely a lot of people here who either can't see Manning's strengths/positives or willfully choose to not recognize them. Many posters here blame everything bad on Manning and everything positive either on the other team doing something wrong or the only the players. Definitely not a straw man - at least in terms of the boards.

Who does this besides Racer and dv7 (who admits that he doesn't actually watch the games)?

birdman laid out a simple, cohesive argument, and Charlotte can't get out of his own way to understand it.

Yep.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

birdman laid out a simple, cohesive argument, and Charlotte can't get out of his own way to understand it.

Lol you mean like the entire argument you just attempted to present based on feelings and nothing of substance?

I didn't disagree with the bulk of his post. He said "anyone" and I pointed out that wasn't true, as Strick just pointed out two very obvious ones (add 22, DR, a couple olds I can't think of their usernames right now). Continue to stay perched on the pedestal you've made for yourself, though.

 

[PhDeac]

All of us are talking about feelings. The substance is simply there were plenty of minutes Collins could have played and didn't.

 

[RChildress107]

This is the complete list of big men who have averaged 20mpg and a PER >20 at age 20 or younger:

Anthony Davis
Andre Drummond
KAT
Nikola Jokic
Andrew Bynum
Elton Brand
Chris Webber
Shaq
Collins

All of the U.S. based guys on that list except Collins were consensus top 10 recruits in high school.

 

[RChildress107]

This feels like a straw man argument. I'm not sure anyone refuses to recognize any of the positives or any of the negatives, different people just have different emphases on some of the positives or the negatives. For me the negatives are more glaring than the positives and, while recognizing uncertainty, I don't see a lot of potential for change or improvement. The things that manning has demonstrated he is probably good at (recruiting and post-player development) aren't enough by themselves or he isn't good enough at them to establish stability, like we had in the 90's and 00's. Personally I'd rather we cut bait sooner rather than later because I predict that it is not going to work out with Manning more than 2 more seasons. It is not a matter of missing the data on Manning it is a matter if differing interpretations and preferred actions. Some folks are more conservative/patient and can handle waiting, some folks are less conservative and are ready to move on.

We have data on what Manning can do with a team full of 4 and 5 star players, which the data indicates he is capable of recruiting? Please share it.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

No, you can argue something like "they are both back to the basket, high possession centers" and that is substance (stats!).

Saying, "We all felt like" he could've been better last year and played with Devin is arguing feelings. Zero substance.

 

[RChildress107]

Yep. I definitely agree with that. I have adopted and defended those perfectly logical conclusions. I'm not going to take an L because you and Charlotte seem to be the only ones who disagree with it.

So, but for Manning, Collins would be on a more exclusive list than the one I posted above? I’m pretty sure Charlotte and I aren’t the only ones that think that argument is crazy.

 

[Strickland33]

Lol you mean like the entire argument you just attempted to present based on feelings and nothing of substance?

I didn't disagree with the bulk of his post. He said "anyone" and I pointed out that wasn't true, as Strick just pointed out two very obvious ones (add 22, DR, a couple olds I can't think of their usernames right now). Continue to stay perched on the pedestal you've made for yourself, though.

So, you take DV7, 22, DR, and the board olds' positions seriously? That may be your first mistake.

I feel like most posters are pretty fair in terms of Manning. Pretty much everyone was optimistic during our surprising run last year and optimistic going into the summer.

That being said, the team has underachieved this year to the point where that optimism feels misguided. When you're dealing with a fan base like ours, that's a pretty rational response. It's been a decade since Dino first took over. That's just pathetic no matter how many numbers you throw around to defend the situation. Trust me, I wasted my time trying to make the [Redacted] disaster make sense, but there is just no way to defend the indefensible after awhile. And, unless you're an AD employee, a player, or a Manning, what's the point of defending the indefensible.

As you point out, there are positives and negatives about the Manning-era. Right now, there are a lot more negatives than positives, regardless of how you spin it.

Pretty much everybody on here has come to terms with Manning being around next year and has a similar set of expectations for the season. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise, IMO.