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Stay John Collins!

CharlotteDeac1 said:
Why is it out of the realm of possibility to think that Manning recognized Collins' overwhelming strength was his post game and helped develop that to be elite, getting him into the NBA? Rather than trying to turn him into PF, they probably both saw that his C post game was the best bet at getting him to the pros and they rolled with it. You can continue to develop other parts of your game when you get to the NBA - the first objective is to get there.
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Did you just start watching basketball 5 years ago? PFs can post up.
 
PhDeac said:
Lowe said Collins should be playing with Dedmon just like fans said Collins should have played with Thomas and with Moore. It's amazing how you prolong arguments by getting simple facts wrong and arguing against them.



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You do realize that “Manning should have played JC and Devin/Moore together” is a completely different argument than “Manning held back JC’s development at Wake”, right?
 
PhDeac said:
Did you just start watching basketball 5 years ago? PFs can post up.
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Jesus you're insufferable sometimes. If that's what you took from that post then you're doing your usual "read what you want to see" and miscontruing everything to fit your narrative. No point in even trying to discuss things with you if you're going to reply to things with asinine comments.

You're also running in circles. Why have a PF who is only going to post up play with Devin, who was a low post guy (and a high possession guy at that - as was Collins)? By that standard playing them together would decrease their effect on the game. And don't try to mention defense because Collins was not a very good defender.
 
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RChildress107 said:
You do realize that “Manning should have played JC and Devin/Moore together” is a completely different argument than “Manning held back JC’s development at Wake”, right?
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I guess technically they are. But I'm arguing both by making the assumption that a player with such a high ceiling gets better with more playing time.
 
PhDeac said:
Did you just start watching basketball 5 years ago? PFs can post up.
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Again, you are confusing “Manning should have played JC at PF” with “Manning should have developed JC as a PF.”

You can’t argue that Manning didn’t do the latter but should have done the former anyways unless you think the modern game is conducive to playing two slightly undersized bigs that thrive with their backs to the basket.
 
RChildress107 said:
Again, you are confusing “Manning should have played JC at PF” with “Manning should have developed JC as a PF.”

You can’t argue that Manning didn’t do the latter but should have done the former anyways unless you think the modern game is conducive to playing two slightly undersized bigs that thrive with their backs to the basket.
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Yes
 
Dinos had earned his 23.8 mpg with his play as a frosh. Devin was Top 10 in the ACC in scoring, Top 3 in rebounding, Top 10 in blocks and FG%, yet not good enough for some here to warrant playing as much as he did.

Everyone wants Moore have some minutes. Even with his 7.1 mpg, there would only be about 19 mpg left for JC. He got over 70% of those.

Top get JC much more would have meant to sit Greg (and for JC to get all those minutes and none for Doral), which would have been OK, but still there weren't many more available.

People here are also forgetting how frustrated JC got when got those two quick fouls.

Even if JC got all the minutes that Dinos, Doral and Devin didn't play, how much of an impact on our season would there have been? It certainly didn't impact JC's soph year.
 
RChildress107 said:
How?

Is the argument now that Collins would have been a top 20 pick and NBA all-rookie team candidate regardless of his coach?

His 247 composite ranking was 184. He is now a borderline NBA starter. What more was Manning supposed to do?
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My take is that Collins would basically be where he is with or without Manning. You really won't convince me otherwise. Huge props to Manning for recruiting and landing him. The bottom line is John Collins ain't walking through that door, and he's a huge anomaly. His offensive efficiency output last year was in the top 10 of all players in college basketball in the last decade. Continuing to point to Collins as hope for Manning's development ability is a shaky endeavor. Looking at Doral's progress is a lot more reasonable. At the same time, however, there are a lot of players who are basically the same (or even worse) as their freshman year.

Basically, Manning has shown an ability to land a couple high-end recruits, as well as some nice 75-100 supporting players. The concern for me remains whether his in-game coaching (or lack thereof) will make the ceiling with him any higher than a fringe NCAAT team every other year (with LOTS of shittiness mixed in between). Guess we'll find out next year. Round of 32 is the bare minimum for me next year. I'll only budge slightly to an NCAAT appearance if the 2019 recruiting class is excellent.
 
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PhDeac said:
I guess technically they are. But I'm arguing both by making the assumption that a player with such a high ceiling gets better with more playing time.
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So Manning should have developed JC into a rim running center, a post player with an expansive offensive skill set inside 10 feet, and a modern stretch 4 capable of playing alongside either of the first two before he played his first college game?

Man if Manning had only given JC an extra 200 minutes of playing time he’s be a shorter Joel Embiid!
 
Ayo said:
My take is that Collins would basically be where he is with or without Manning. You really won't convince me otherwise. Huge props to Manning for recruiting and landing him. The bottom line is John Collins ain't walking through that door, and he's a huge anomaly. His offensive efficiency output last year was in the top 10 of all players in college basketball in the last decade. Continuing to point to Collins as hope for Manning's development ability is a shaky endeavor. Looking at Doral's progress is a lot more reasonable.

Basically, Manning has shown an ability to land a couple high-end recruits, as well as some nice 75-100 supporting players. The concern for me remains whether his in-game coaching (or lack thereof) will make the ceiling with him any higher than a fringe NCAAT team every other year (with LOTS of shittiness mixed in). Guess we'll find out next year.
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So we’re really going with the “Collins was a diamond in the rough that everyone missed on and Manning just got lucky” theory. Really?
 
Ayo said:
My take is that Collins would basically be where he is with or without Manning. You really won't convince me otherwise. Huge props to Manning for recruiting and landing him. The bottom line is John Collins ain't walking through that door, and he's a huge anomaly. His offensive efficiency output last year was in the top 10 of all players in college basketball in the last decade. Continuing to point to Collins as hope for Manning's development ability is a shaky endeavor. Looking at Doral's progress is a lot more reasonable. At the same time, however, there are a lot of players who are basically the same (or even worse) as their freshman year.

Basically, Manning has shown an ability to land a couple high-end recruits, as well as some nice 75-100 supporting players. The concern for me remains whether his in-game coaching (or lack thereof) will make the ceiling with him any higher than a fringe NCAAT team every other year (with LOTS of shittiness mixed in between). Guess we'll find out next year. Round of 32 is the bare minimum for me next year. I'll only budge slightly to an NCAAT appearance if the 2019 recruiting class is excellent.
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His recruiting success (or lack thereof) will have 10x the impact on his ceiling than his in game coaching.
 
RChildress107 said:
So we’re really going with the “Collins was a diamond in the rough that everyone missed on and Manning just got lucky” theory. Really?
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There are people who don't think Collins was a diamond in the rough? Go back and look at the recruiting thread. Plenty of people (I won't say "we all" because there are idiots here) thought he was way underrated.
 
RChildress107 said:
So we’re really going with the “Collins was a diamond in the rough that everyone missed on and Manning just got lucky” theory. Really?
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It is not an unreasonable conclusion. What is the evidence to the contrary? You can't really conclude that Manning didn't get lucky and has some exceptional talent as a big man coach until Manning does it 2 or more times in a few years time. If Doral goes first round this year or if Sarr explodes next year and ends up in the NBA in 2019 or 2020, we might call that a pattern but it is hard to draw a curvilinear relationship with just 1 point.
 
birdman said:
It is not an unreasonable conclusion. What is the evidence to the contrary? You can't really conclude that Manning didn't get lucky and has some exceptional talent as a big man coach until Manning does it 2 or more times in a few years time. If Doral goes first round this year or if Sarr explodes next year and ends up in the NBA in 2019 or 2020, we might call that a pattern but it is hard to draw a curvilinear relationship with just 1 point.
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So all the Kansas Data points mean diddley?
 
PhDeac said:
There are people who don't think Collins was a diamond in the rough? Go back and look at the recruiting thread. Plenty of people (I won't say "we all" because there are idiots here) thought he was way underrated.
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Do you think maybe one of those people was Danny Manning who, having been a successful NBA big man, identified an underrated kid that Wake had a decent shot of landing who had potential to become a starting NBA big man? Maybe?
 
RChildress107 said:
Do you think maybe one of those people was Danny Manning who, having been a successful NBA big man, identified an underrated kid that Wake had a decent shot of landing who had potential to become a starting NBA big man? Maybe?
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Yeah. So how does that help your point?
 
birdman said:
It is not an unreasonable conclusion. What is the evidence to the contrary? You can't really conclude that Manning didn't get lucky and has some exceptional talent as a big man coach until Manning does it 2 or more times in a few years time. If Doral goes first round this year or if Sarr explodes next year and ends up in the NBA in 2019 or 2020, we might call that a pattern but it is hard to draw a curvilinear relationship with just 1 point.
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He did the same at Kansas several times. A perfect example was Thomas Robinson who came to KU as a #50-70 recruit and after being coached by Manning was National Player of the Year and a lottery pick. Another was Markief Morris was about #50 when he arrived at KU and left a lottery pick.

There are others.

Justifiably, Danny Manning is regarded as one of the best, if not the best, big man's coach in college basketball. It's not just John Collins.
 
birdman said:
It is not an unreasonable conclusion. What is the evidence to the contrary? You can't really conclude that Manning didn't get lucky and has some exceptional talent as a big man coach until Manning does it 2 or more times in a few years time. If Doral goes first round this year or if Sarr explodes next year and ends up in the NBA in 2019 or 2020, we might call that a pattern but it is hard to draw a curvilinear relationship with just 1 point.
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I’m not a huge fan of Occam’s razor but I think it applies here.

Either Manning found the once in a generation 3* big man that was destined to become an NBA starter quality player in 2 years; or

He gets credit for some combo of identifying/recruiting/developing Collins.

When your sample size is too small to run statistical analysis, common sense can be a decent stand in.
 
PhDeac said:
Yeah. So how does that help your point?
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Manning either has an exceptional eye for big man talent or is an exceptional developer of big men. Or both. Either way he deserves credit.

And if the argument is that Manning simply got lucky, then your argument that Manning failed to develop Collins is really a statement that Collins should be even better than he is now if he had proper coaching.

Is there a historical precedent for a three star big man recruit (from the U.S.) playing better as a 20 year old than Collins is playing right now?
 
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