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Stay John Collins!

My argument:

1. Manning could have played Collins more.
2. Collins would have been even better if he had played more.

Your counterargument:
1. [please fill in the blank]
2. [please fill in the blank]
 
RChildress107 said:
This is the complete list of big men who have averaged 20mpg and a PER >20 at age 20 or younger:

Anthony Davis
Andre Drummond
KAT
Nikola Jokic
Andrew Bynum
Elton Brand
Chris Webber
Shaq
Collins

All of the U.S. based guys on that list except Collins were consensus top 10 recruits in high school.
Click to expand...

Here’s the list of the 32 big men in NBA history who have posted those numbers their rookie year regardless of age. The large majority of those guys are or will be in the Hall of Fame. But Manning held JC back.
 
birdman said:
Yeah, RJ showed me some of that data, and they are supportive of the notion that Manning has a special talent, but I don't think they are conclusive. He wasn't the HC so I'm not sure what credit to attribute to Self v Manning.
Click to expand...

Because Self and the players have publicly stated this was Manning's #1 duty. Morris' brother was the 14th pick in the draft. Danny even got Cole Aldrich into the lottery.

Why it's not conclusive is that if it was your entire hypothesis would fall apart.

EDIT:
I doubt this will have any impact:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...2-ku-assistant-danny-manning-ready-head-coach

More bigs Danny helped at KU:

"Otherwise, Manning has helped every other KU post player with the above-mentioned figures blossom into a professional-caliber player. The list of NBA draftees includes Wayne Simien, Julian Wright, Darnell Jackson, Sasha Kaun, Darrell Arthur, Cole Aldrich, and Marcus and Markieff Morris. Others such as Padgett, Jeff Graves and C.J. Giles have earned money overseas."

""I'm blessed to have even met him," said Markieff Morris, who is in his first year with the Phoenix Suns. "He's the best big-man coach in the country. Any time that whistle blows and you look over to that sideline, he's telling you what to do.

"I owe most of my success to him."

"Danny is the best when it comes to teaching guys about footwork and angles and putting yourself in a position to make something happen." (hmm take a look at JC's footwork)

"That obviously played a negative role in his playing career," Self said, "but it was probably a positive in his coaching career. He's had to teach guys to do it the way he had to learn to do it after he was hurt, as opposed to just being a superstar. A lot of guys can't do what superstars do."

I'm heading out for a while, but you can't get any better than looking at how many bigs became successful. How they think of him. How his boss thinks of him.
 
Last edited:
PhDeac said:
My argument:

1. Manning could have played Collins more.
2. Collins would have been even better if he had played more.

Your counterargument:
1. John Collins was a 3* recruit ranked outside the top 150 by most recruiting services
2. No U.S based player ranked outside the top 10 has ever put up the numbers Collins is putting up at age 20.
3. It is highly unlikely that a player who is in the 99.99th percentile in terms of development from age 17 to age 20 could have developed much more than he actually did.
4. Playing time is not very well correlated with player improvement

Conclusion: It is very unlikely that additional playing time during his freshman year would have resulted in JC being better than he currently is.
Click to expand...

What support, if any, do you have for your second premise?
 
RJKarl said:
Because Self and the players have publicly stated this was Manning's #1 duty. Morris' brother was the 14th pick in the draft. Danny even got Cole Aldrich into the lottery.

Why it's not conclusive is that if it was your entire hypothesis would fall apart.

EDIT:
I doubt this will have any impact:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...2-ku-assistant-danny-manning-ready-head-coach

More bigs Danny helped at KU:

"Otherwise, Manning has helped every other KU post player with the above-mentioned figures blossom into a professional-caliber player. The list of NBA draftees includes Wayne Simien, Julian Wright, Darnell Jackson, Sasha Kaun, Darrell Arthur, Cole Aldrich, and Marcus and Markieff Morris. Others such as Padgett, Jeff Graves and C.J. Giles have earned money overseas."

""I'm blessed to have even met him," said Markieff Morris, who is in his first year with the Phoenix Suns. "He's the best big-man coach in the country. Any time that whistle blows and you look over to that sideline, he's telling you what to do.

"I owe most of my success to him."

"Danny is the best when it comes to teaching guys about footwork and angles and putting yourself in a position to make something happen." (hmm take a look at JC's footwork)

"That obviously played a negative role in his playing career," Self said, "but it was probably a positive in his coaching career. He's had to teach guys to do it the way he had to learn to do it after he was hurt, as opposed to just being a superstar. A lot of guys can't do what superstars do."

I'm heading out for a while, but you can't get any better than looking at how many bigs became successful. How they think of him. How his boss thinks of him.
Click to expand...

People rave(d) about Jeff [Redacted], too. I'm not sure that this is the greatest way to prove your point, though I agree with you that Manning has a solid track record of developing big men.
 
The RESULTS prove it. How many other coaches have that man big men in the pros? And how many of those bigs were rated as low as KU's and JC?
 
PhDeac said:
My argument:

1. Manning could have played Collins more.
2. Collins would have been even better if he had played more.

Your counterargument:
1. [please fill in the blank]
2. [please fill in the blank]
Click to expand...

Manning took a three star prospect to the 19th overall pick in two years. Hard to argue what he did was not effective. You have all the feels PH no reason no facts.
 
WFcatamount22 said:
Manning took a three star prospect to the 19th overall pick in two years. Hard to argue what he did was not effective. You have all the feels PH no reason no facts.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing the two things above.
 
RJKarl said:
The RESULTS prove it. How many other coaches have that man big men in the pros? And how many of those bigs were rated as low as KU's and JC?
Click to expand...

That's not really a great way to prove your point. You can't work backwards from successful cases without taking all of the data into consideration. Not every big that Manning coached at Kansas, Tulsa, and Wake made the NBA. Some have, however, and their developmental trajectories suggest that Manning (and/or assistant/associate coaches on his staffs at Tulsa and Wake) does a good job of developing big men. Who is responsible for what, though, is grounded in an assumption that Manning's coaching explains their success.
 
RJKarl said:
Because Self and the players have publicly stated this was Manning's #1 duty. Morris' brother was the 14th pick in the draft. Danny even got Cole Aldrich into the lottery.

Why it's not conclusive is that if it was your entire hypothesis would fall apart.

EDIT:
I doubt this will have any impact:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...2-ku-assistant-danny-manning-ready-head-coach

More bigs Danny helped at KU:

"Otherwise, Manning has helped every other KU post player with the above-mentioned figures blossom into a professional-caliber player. The list of NBA draftees includes Wayne Simien, Julian Wright, Darnell Jackson, Sasha Kaun, Darrell Arthur, Cole Aldrich, and Marcus and Markieff Morris. Others such as Padgett, Jeff Graves and C.J. Giles have earned money overseas."

""I'm blessed to have even met him," said Markieff Morris, who is in his first year with the Phoenix Suns. "He's the best big-man coach in the country. Any time that whistle blows and you look over to that sideline, he's telling you what to do.

"I owe most of my success to him."

"Danny is the best when it comes to teaching guys about footwork and angles and putting yourself in a position to make something happen." (hmm take a look at JC's footwork)

"That obviously played a negative role in his playing career," Self said, "but it was probably a positive in his coaching career. He's had to teach guys to do it the way he had to learn to do it after he was hurt, as opposed to just being a superstar. A lot of guys can't do what superstars do."

I'm heading out for a while, but you can't get any better than looking at how many bigs became successful. How they think of him. How his boss thinks of him.
Click to expand...

Nope all of those guys would have been hall of famers if Manning hadn’t gotten in the way.
 
PhDeac said:
I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing the two things above.
Click to expand...

There is no way to prove your point. Just because Collins was not getting game minutes doesn't mean he wasn't developing in the most effective way possible. We have feels, Danny has results.
 
PhDeac said:
My argument:

1. Manning could have played Collins more.
2. Collins would have been even better if he had played more.

Your counterargument:
1. John Collins was a 3* recruit ranked outside the top 150 by most recruiting services
2. No U.S based player ranked outside the top 10 has ever put up the numbers Collins is putting up at age 20.
3. It is highly unlikely that a player who is in the 99.99th percentile in terms of development from age 17 to age 20 could have developed much more than he actually did.
4. Playing time is not very well correlated with player improvement
Click to expand...

RChildress107 said:
What support, if any, do you have for your second premise?
Click to expand...

This. And that Collins and Devin wouldn't have played well together (which you argued) because they required high possession % to be at their peak. Collins game wasn't as developed his freshman year (obviously) so he didn't have his mid range game.

And to answer your question RC, none. It's all feelings.
 
Talking about Collins makes me miss last year so much, even a mediocre season was badass. Last year I saw us beat Louisville, this year I watched us lose to liberty.
 
PhDeac said:
My argument:

1. Manning could have played Collins more.
2. Collins would have been even better if he had played more.

Your counterargument:
1. [please fill in the blank]
2. [please fill in the blank]
Click to expand...

And 3) Wake would have been even better if Collins had played more.
 
RChildress107 said:
We have data on what Manning can do with a team full of 4 and 5 star players, which the data indicates he is capable of recruiting? Please share it.
Click to expand...

No, there are no data on that scenario, which, in my view, is part of the problem.
 
Strickland33 said:
That's not really a great way to prove your point. You can't work backwards from successful cases without taking all of the data into consideration. Not every big that Manning coached at Kansas, Tulsa, and Wake made the NBA. Some have, however, and their developmental trajectories suggest that Manning (and/or assistant/associate coaches on his staffs at Tulsa and Wake) does a good job of developing big men. Who is responsible for what, though, is grounded in an assumption that Manning's coaching explains their success.
Click to expand...

WHAT??? There's never been a coach who put EVERY player he coached into the NBA to even propose this is stupefying.

The way tell a position is successful is by how many players he puts into the pros. You can't not do it that way.
 
RChildress107 said:
So you agree that Manning gets some credit for Collins’s development? Which would mean Manning’s limited success last year can’t be written off as kicking into Collins? Glad we are on the same page.
Click to expand...

Of course he gets some credit.

Why was Manning's success "limited" last year?
 
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