Stay John Collins!

[CharlotteDeac1]

talk about revisionist

he had a good senior season

we went 2-16

I was unaware saying "Devin Thomas was really fucking good his senior year" = "Wake Forest's basketball team was really fucking good" :bowrofl:

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

So? He and Collins could have played together.

I'd have to go back and watch tape to double check, but John Collins didn't display an incredible array of abilities like he did his Soph year in his frosh year. He was extremely atheltic in the post, but I don't remember him having any ability to stretch defenses. Again, you're talking about that year like 2016 Collins would've been the one on the court.

 

[morrison2951]

The best thing that could have happened to John Collins and Wake Forest is DT graduating. He was just getting in JC's way, thus getting in Wake Forest's way.

^^^^
This.

Sure wish that DM had found a way to get them both on the court together.

 

[knowell]

So? He and Collins could have played together.

This is the deal. Manning likes 4 shooters and a big and we all know he is stubborn.

There are coaches who would have kept either Moore or Collins along with Thomas on the floor most of the time. Coaches who play to their strengths as opposed to some preconceived ideal of how they want their teams to be.

Rebounding and defense would have been much stronger much like it is whenever Manning plays Moore & Sarr together. Would not have been 2-16.

 

[RChildress107]

I'd have to go back and watch tape to double check, but John Collins didn't display an incredible array of abilities like he did his Soph year in his frosh year. He was extremely atheltic in the post, but I don't remember him having any ability to stretch defenses. Again, you're talking about that year like 2016 Collins would've been the one on the court.

Collins showed a ton of offensive potential from the get go. That doesn’t mean he should have played 30 minutes a game from the get go. I personally thought he should have played more simply because I’m a fan of playing frosh once a season is clearly lost.

That being said, I don’t think missing out on 250 minutes of game time (which might not have gone as well as the 250 he got) really stunted his development.

And if the argument is that JC was a beast who should have started over Devin on day one, then Manning gets credit for finding him among a sea of three star recruits. And probably deserves credit for slow playing his hand instead of having JC blow up a year early and go pro.

 

[PhDeac]

not really lol. Again, you can recognize really high potential and not declare two years later that we should've played him soo much more when he had Devin Thomas averaging a double double in front of him. It is revisionist. The dumb trend is looking back with new knowledge you have 1-2 years down the road and declaring Danny did a shitty job coaching because of it.

No dude. People said 2 years ago that Collins should have played more and that Collins and Thomas should have played together and Danny did a shitty job of coaching because of it.

I don't know if you're just being dismissive or you have a horrible memory, but it's really dumb and annoying.

 

[RChildress107]

This is the deal. Manning likes 4 shooters and a big and we all know he is stubborn.

There are coaches who would have kept either Moore or Collins along with Thomas on the floor most of the time. Coaches who play to their strengths as opposed to some preconceived ideal of how they want their teams to be.

Rebounding and defense would have been much stronger much like it is whenever Manning plays Moore & Sarr together. Would not have been 2-16.

Moore maybe (if he had been ready), Collins no. In all honesty that would have been more detrimental to Collins’s development than too little playing time.

And is our defense actually better when Moore and Sarr play together? Are there numbers to support that? Is there even a large enough sample size?

 

[thatguy2016]

I was unaware saying "Devin Thomas was really fucking good his senior year" = "Wake Forest's basketball team was really fucking good" :bowrofl:

well of course it's not a one to one, but really effing good players generally play for at least respectable teams

or, they are recognized on one of 3 all-league teams

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

Collins showed a ton of offensive potential from the get go. That doesn’t mean he should have played 30 minutes a game from the get go. I personally thought he should have played more simply because I’m a fan of playing frosh once a season is clearly lost.

That being said, I don’t think missing out on 250 minutes of game time (which might not have gone as well as the 250 he got) really stunted his development.

And if the argument is that JC was a beast who should have started over Devin on day one, then Manning gets credit for finding him among a sea of three star recruits. And probably deserves credit for slow playing his hand instead of having JC blow up a year early and go pro.

The bolded is what I'm addressing. I'm not saying he didn't show incredible potential because he did. I don't remember him having the 15-20 point jumper his freshman year though - or at least he wasn't confident enough to use it in games. I also said he probably should've played a little more, but Devin Thomas was really good. Plus, people acting like it would've made some huge difference in our season are just kidding themselves because they have Manning-hate blinders on.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

No dude. People said 2 years ago that Collins should have played more and that Collins and Thomas should have played together and Danny did a shitty job of coaching because of it.

I don't know if you're just being dismissive or you have a horrible memory, but it's really dumb and annoying.

LOL

People recognizing his offensive POTENTIAL is one thing, but saying Danny did a shitty job of coaching because he didn't play him a ton more is dumb and annoying.

 

[RChildress107]

No dude. People said 2 years ago that Collins should have played more and that Collins and Thomas should have played together and Danny did a shitty job of coaching because of it.

I don't know if you're just being dismissive or you have a horrible memory, but it's really dumb and annoying.

Collins and Thomas playing together would have forced Collins out of position (playing without the ball) or forced Thomas to do something he was incapable of (playing without the ball). They were both slightly undersized, offensive minded 4/5s that needed a high volume of post touches to be successful.

I would have preferred Collins to get Devin’s minutes towards the end of the year but there are very obvious reasons why that didn’t happen.

The point remains though that the coach deserves credit and blame for what happens on the floor. If you aren’t going to give Manning credit for Collins carrying the team to the tourney last year, then don’t blame him when Crawford and co. suck it up this year.

If he doesn’t get credit for the 3*s that pop then he shouldn’t get blamed for the 3 or 4*s that don’t. Pick one or the other.

 

[PhDeac]

LOL

People recognizing his offensive POTENTIAL is one thing, but saying Danny did a shitty job of coaching because he didn't play him a ton more is dumb and annoying.

It's not a stretch to say a coach of an 11-20 (2-16) team did a shitty job on its face. It's also not a stretch to watch a promising player score 7.3 pts a game on 55% shooting with 3.8 reb a game and say it's pretty shitty that the coach didn't play him more than 14 min per game.

By the way, Doral averaged 3.8 pts on 65% shooting with 2.6 reb in only 7 min per game.

 

[RChildress107]

It's not a stretch to say a coach of an 11-20 (2-16) team did a shitty job on its face. It's also not a stretch to watch a promising player score 7.3 pts a game on 55% shooting with 3.8 reb a game and say it's pretty shitty that the coach didn't play him more than 14 min per game.

By the way, Doral averaged 3.8 pts on 65% shooting with 2.6 reb in only 7 min per game.

Then it’s also not a stretch to say a coach of a 19-14, NCAA tourney, #36 team in the country, did a good job on its face. It’s also not a stretch to say that recruiting the most efficient player in the country his sophomore year is pretty awesome on its face.

 

[RChildress107]

All my rantings on this board boil down to this:

When judging Manning: develop a reasonable, results-oriented definition of success that accounts for the situation Manning inherited and then judge him against that definition at the end of each season.

When people fail to do that we get silly takes like this one where people blame Manning for wasting Collins without giving him credit for getting/developing Collins in the first place.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

It's not a stretch to say a coach of an 11-20 (2-16) team did a shitty job on its face. It's also not a stretch to watch a promising player score 7.3 pts a game on 55% shooting with 3.8 reb a game and say it's pretty shitty that the coach didn't play him more than 14 min per game.

By the way, Doral averaged 3.8 pts on 65% shooting with 2.6 reb in only 7 min per game.

When Devin and JC's games were essentially the exact same and needed a ton of possession time to operate, yeah that wouldn't work. If you're trying to say at the end of the year he should've gotten Devin's minutes because the season was a throwaway then whatever, that's fine. Doesn't seem like what you're trying to argue.

I just don't understand bringing up this "play Collins more in 2015-16" argument when 1. obviously didn't have a negative effect on his development and 2. would've had a negligible effect on the season because of his game being the exact same as Devin's his freshman year. If neither of these things mattered, then wtf are we talking about it for?

 

[PhDeac]

When Devin and JC's games were essentially the exact same and needed a ton of possession time to operate, yeah that wouldn't work. If you're trying to say at the end of the year he should've gotten Devin's minutes because the season was a throwaway then whatever, that's fine. Doesn't seem like what you're trying to argue.

I just don't understand bringing up this "play Collins more in 2015-16" argument when 1. obviously didn't have a negative effect on his development and 2. would've had a negligible effect on the season because of his game being the exact same as Devin's his freshman year. If neither of these things mattered, then wtf are we talking about it for?

Those are both really dumb takes. First, we all thought he didn't get nearly as good as he could have gotten in his 2 years at Wake. He didn't develop the ability to play at PF and that's actually hurting his minutes with the Hawks.

Second, playing a good player more minutes certainly would not have been negligible.

 

[MichDeac25]

Those are both really dumb takes. First, we all thought he didn't get nearly as good as he could have gotten in his 2 years at Wake. He didn't develop the ability to play at PF and that's actually hurting his minutes with the Hawks.

Second, playing a good player more minutes certainly would not have been negligible.

JC was a foul machine, particularly as a freshman. And Doral was not nearly the play his freshman or his sophomore year that he is this year. Doral had plenty of chances and he simply didn't look good his Sophomore season.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

Those are both really dumb takes. First, we all thought he didn't get nearly as good as he could have gotten in his 2 years at Wake. He didn't develop the ability to play at PF and that's actually hurting his minutes with the Hawks.

Second, playing a good player more minutes certainly would not have been negligible.

Okay first, no they aren't dumb takes you're MO is just to be condescending.

Second, who is "we all"? "you all" thought that he should've been better than he was last year, best player in PER, should've been ACC POY, and blow up into a first round draft pick? Wow, quite the expectations.

Third, why is it hard to understand that two guys playing on the court at the time that require huge possession time to be good, in a space that's about 10 feet apart from each other? Having two guys who require large possession time at guard is different because they have plenty of space to operate around the entire 3 point line. Not in the post.

If you're going to try to start arguing that Collins "should've learned PF" then again, sure whatever. I'm not going to sit here and try to argue his development though. Seemed to work out well.

 

[PhDeac]

You act like it's some crazy thing to not play two post players together.

 

[RChildress107]

Those are both really dumb takes. First, we all thought he didn't get nearly as good as he could have gotten in his 2 years at Wake. He didn't develop the ability to play at PF and that's actually hurting his minutes with the Hawks.

Second, playing a good player more minutes certainly would not have been negligible.

Wait, is Ph arguing that John Collins didn’t develop as much as he could/should have in his two years at Wake? Please tell me I’m misreading this post.