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Stay John Collins!

Strickland33 said:
That's not really a great way to prove your point. You can't work backwards from successful cases without taking all of the data into consideration. Not every big that Manning coached at Kansas, Tulsa, and Wake made the NBA. Some have, however, and their developmental trajectories suggest that Manning (and/or assistant/associate coaches on his staffs at Tulsa and Wake) does a good job of developing big men. Who is responsible for what, though, is grounded in an assumption that Manning's coaching explains their success.
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Yes, when you only look at the positive examples it is pretty easy to conclude that everything is great.
 
RJKarl said:
WHAT??? There's never been a coach who put EVERY player he coached into the NBA to even propose this is stupefying.

The way tell a position is successful is by how many players he puts into the pros. You can't not do it that way.
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No, the best way would be to look at the pro-nonpro ratio and then compare it to other coaches' ratios, then you could truly tell if Manning was something special.
 
RChildress107 said:
We have data on what Manning can do with a team full of 4 and 5 star players, which the data indicates he is capable of recruiting? Please share it.
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wait...we have data indicating Manning is capable of recruiting a team full of 4 and 5 star players? how many at the same time?

so far he's signed 5 4-stars and 0 5-stars, right?

by what year does the data indicate he'll have a team full of 4 and 5 star players? is that a full rotation or just a starting 5?
 
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birdman said:
No, there are no data on that scenario, which, in my view, is part of the problem.
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It’s Manning’s fault he didn’t inherit a team full of 5 star players and wasn’t able to land top 10 recruiting classes from the get go at a decimated program?

It’s not a coincidence that our 3 best players in ACC play are the only 3 top 100 recruits on our roster. We have two more coming in next year, including a top 25 guy.
 
birdman said:
Yes, when you only look at the positive examples it is pretty easy to conclude that everything is great.
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Bird, you can only play five guys at a time. Therefore, some players wont play as much. This is not getting a job in science or insurance or other professions. You rarely get the chance to make the league if you don't play in college.

Strick's post is ludicrous and eliminates a huge number of players who did succeed and make the NBA. During that period, I would hazard a guess that only KY had as many reach the NBA and I'd guarantee KY's players were much more highly regarding coming into college.

There is finite number of positions in the NBA. to say that Danny didn't get far more than his share is totally ridiculous and the numbers show it.

But I understand you are totally entrenched in your position.

I will be back in a few hours. But you are dancing up a storm to avoid the obvious.
 
thatguy2016 said:
wait...we have data indicating Manning is capable of recruiting a team full of 4 and 5 star players? how many at the same time?

so far he's signed 3 4-stars and 0 5-stars?

by what year does the data indicate he'll have a team full of 4 and 5 star players? is that a full rotation or just a starting 5?
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Next year. It’s almost like it takes time to build up relationships with recruits in order to convince them to come to a shit program.

I’ve posted data, probably somewhere on the recruiting thread, indicating that Manning is recruiting on the same level as Odom/Prosser/Dino did.
 
RChildress107 said:
It’s Manning’s fault he didn’t inherit a team full of 5 star players and wasn’t able to land top 10 recruiting classes from the get go at a decimated program?

It’s not a coincidence that our 3 best players in ACC play are the only 3 top 100 recruits on our roster. We have two more coming in next year, including a top 25 guy.
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But wait, I thought he was a great recruiter? He has had 4 classes, and here you are still blaming [Redacted] while I am worried that it's a sign that he just isn't going to be good enough in the ACC.
 
It’s funny because if a cogent, backed up argument could be presented I could concede at least some. Birdman has swayed me toward his side of an argument not long ago. All Ph is talking about is his feelings and literally zero substance.
 
RChildress107 said:
Next year. It’s almost like it takes time to build up relationships with recruits in order to convince them to come to a shit program.

I’ve posted data, probably somewhere on the recruiting thread, indicating that Manning is recruiting on the same level as Odom/Prosser/Dino did.
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if everyone comes back, he'll have 5 4-stars, two of them seniors

I don't consider that to be a rotation full of 4 and 5 star players, because once you rotate players, you're no longer full of 4-stars (and it would be nice to include a 5 star if we're saying they're in the rotation)
 
PhDeac said:
Of course he gets some credit.

Why was Manning's success "limited" last year?
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Because our talent level wasn’t very good.

But let’s not change the subject. Tell us more about how JC would be better than Anthony Davis was as a rookie if only Manning had played him more minutes.
 
CharlotteDeac1 said:
It’s funny because if a cogent, backed up argument could be presented I could concede at least some. Birdman has swayed me toward his side of an argument not long ago. All Ph is talking about is his feelings and literally zero substance.
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I posted evidence last week that Collins could have played more minutes as a freshman to debunk the foul trouble myth. Your response is feelings that he and Thomas couldn't have played together.
 
thatguy2016 said:
if everyone comes back, he'll have 5 4-stars, two of them seniors

I don't consider that to be a rotation full of 4 and 5 star players, because once you rotate players, you're no longer full of 4-stars (and it would be nice to include a 5 star if we're saying they're in the rotation)
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Hoard is a 5 star
 
RChildress107 said:
Next year. It’s almost like it takes time to build up relationships with recruits in order to convince them to come to a shit program.

I’ve posted data, probably somewhere on the recruiting thread, indicating that Manning is recruiting on the same level as Odom/Prosser/Dino did.
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That's why the 2015 class was good, and the 2016 class was awful (a big reason why this year's team sucks).
 
PhDeac said:
I posted evidence last week that Collins could have played more minutes as a freshman to debunk the foul trouble myth. Your response is feelings that he and Thomas couldn't have played together.
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What evidence?

Possession percentage is my feelings? Wow I have good feelings
 
birdman said:
But wait, I thought he was a great recruiter? He has had 4 classes, and here you are still blaming [name redacted] while I am worried that it's a sign that he just isn't going to be good enough in the ACC.
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RChildress107 said:
Hoard is a 5 star
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And Childress and Melo were both rated 4* by at least one service (though most had them as 3* I think). Sarr might have been a 4* if he played high school ball in the U.S.

I’ll update the coaching vs talent thread I started a few years ago to demonstrate just how much [Redacted] decimated the program. I suspect it will show that lack of talent will not be an excuse next year.
 
I used the 247 sports rankings

Hoard is a 4 star

Childress and Melo are 3 stars
 
RJKarl said:
Bird, you can only play five guys at a time. Therefore, some players wont play as much. This is not getting a job in science or insurance or other professions. You rarely get the chance to make the league if you don't play in college.

Strick's post is ludicrous and eliminates a huge number of players who did succeed and make the NBA. During that period, I would hazard a guess that only KY had as many reach the NBA and I'd guarantee KY's players were much more highly regarding coming into college.

There is finite number of positions in the NBA. to say that Danny didn't get far more than his share is totally ridiculous and the numbers show it.

But I understand you are totally entrenched in your position.

I will be back in a few hours. But you are dancing up a storm to avoid the obvious.
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You completely missed my point, RJ. I agree with you that Manning appears to do a good job developing big men.

My point is that you are working back from cases that fit your conclusion when there are a lot of cases that don’t.

What does "far more than his share" mean for your argument if we have nobody else to compare Manning's success as an assistant and as a head coach with?

Does Bill Self not get credit, too, for the development of KU big men in the NBA? If Self doesn't get sole credit as a head coach and Danny does as an assistant, then why does Danny also get credit at Tulsa and Wake as a head coach?
 
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