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Danny Manning Credibility Watch

Doral Moore didn't even start his senior year in HS, yet he leads the ACC in FG% and is Top 5 in rebounding. But that's not improvement to some here.

The player the boards loves to hate Bryant Crawford was about #80 in the nation. He's been in the Top 6 in assists all three years, Top 5 in steals and this year leads the ACC in FT%, but that's not improvement.

Anyone who has watched Sarr this season has real improvement. Well, anyone who has watched objectively. Remember, he had no chance to bulk up over the summer, moved thousands of miles to a country that doesn't speak his native language and plays a completely different style than he's ever played before. There's something else that hasn't gotten much play. He's got to be beyond dog tired physically and mentally. At the very least, he hasn't had a meaningful break since the Spring 2016. He's had his HS games, international tournaments and then immediately to Wake since then. This kid is tough.

If you can't see the improvement of Donovan Mitchell, it's because you don't want to.

But none of the above matters to many here.
 
RJKarl said:
Doral Moore didn't even start his senior year in HS, yet he leads the ACC in FG% and is Top 5 in rebounding. But that's not improvement to some here.

The player the boards loves to hate Bryant Crawford was about #80 in the nation. He's been in the Top 6 in assists all three years, Top 5 in steals and this year leads the ACC in FT%, but that's not improvement.

Anyone who has watched Sarr this season has real improvement. Well, anyone who has watched objectively. Remember, he had no chance to bulk up over the summer, moved thousands of miles to a country that doesn't speak his native language and plays a completely different style than he's ever played before. There's something else that hasn't gotten much play. He's got to be beyond dog tired physically and mentally. At the very least, he hasn't had a meaningful break since the Spring 2016. He's had his HS games, international tournaments and then immediately to Wake since then. This kid is tough.

If you can't see the improvement of Donovan Mitchell, it's because you don't want to.

But none of the above matters to many here.
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Manning can’t get it done in the last 5 minutes of games. We keep losing game after game by getting outscored 4-12, 0-8, 0-15, 2-12.
 
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We do what I call “fake guard”. Our guys get in a defensive stance and move with the offensive player, but they don’t actually guard. They don’t make life miserable for the opposing player. And it fools people and apparently our coaches into thinking we are guarding. Watch Virginia and Duke. Every single dribble, every single pass is contested and scares you. It looks like your team is going to lose the ball the entire possession. We don’t contest anything. It’s honestly pitiful. Lazy lazy defense.

And here’s one thing to watch. A tell tell sign of bad and lazy defense is defenders rarely fighting through screens. They switch often, which is the lazy way out. Watch our guys defend. We never fight through screens and we constantly switch. It’s lazy, and it causes space and it causes mismatches in the offensive player’s favor.

We are really poorly coached defensively. Really poorly coached. And on top of that, our coaches don’t demand defensive effort. Doomed.
 
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guitardeac said:
We do what I call “fake guard”. Our guys get in a defensive stance and move with the offensive player, but they don’t actually guard. They don’t make life miserable for the opposing player. And it fools people and apparently our coaches into thinking we are guarding. Watch Virginia and Duke. Every single dribble, every single pass is contested and scares you. It looks like your team is going to lose the ball the entire possession. We don’t contest anything. It’s honestly pitiful. Lazy lazy defense.

And here’s one thing to watch. A tell tell sign of bad and lazy defense is defenders rarely fighting through screens. They switch often, which is the lazy way out. Watch our guys defend. We never fight through screens and we constantly switch. It’s lazy, and it causes space and it causes mismatches in the offensive player’s favor.
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This is so true. Especially crawford and key. they are there but nor there. no intensity. go for the steal but no chest to chest d. thats too much effort.
 
Can we please stop talking about player improvement? At the end of the day, WGAF? Why does that even matter? The best benchmark we have is comparing how we stack up against other teams in our same conference. DM’s teams have finished in 12th, 14th and 10th place respectively after the end of his first three years of coaching. We are now in 14th place. But man oh man, look how much our players have improved with his stellar coaching! Give me a break...
 
guitardeac said:
We do what I call “fake guard”. Our guys get in a defensive stance and move with the offensive player, but they don’t actually guard. They don’t make life miserable for the opposing player. And it fools people and apparently our coaches into thinking we are guarding. Watch Virginia and Duke. Every single dribble, every single pass is contested and scares you. It looks like your team is going to lose the ball the entire possession. We don’t contest anything. It’s honestly pitiful. Lazy lazy defense.

And here’s one thing to watch. A tell tell sign of bad and lazy defense is defenders rarely fighting through screens. They switch often, which is the lazy way out. Watch our guys defend. We never fight through screens and we constantly switch. It’s lazy, and it causes space and it causes mismatches in the offensive player’s favor.

We are really poorly coached defensively. Really poorly coached. And on top of that, our coaches don’t demand defensive effort. Doomed.
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Yep. Good post (although Duke is not a good example of great defense).
 
guitardeac said:
We do what I call “fake guard”. Our guys get in a defensive stance and move with the offensive player, but they don’t actually guard. They don’t make life miserable for the opposing player. And it fools people and apparently our coaches into thinking we are guarding. Watch Virginia and Duke. Every single dribble, every single pass is contested and scares you. It looks like your team is going to lose the ball the entire possession. We don’t contest anything. It’s honestly pitiful. Lazy lazy defense.

And here’s one thing to watch. A tell tell sign of bad and lazy defense is defenders rarely fighting through screens. They switch often, which is the lazy way out. Watch our guys defend. We never fight through screens and we constantly switch. It’s lazy, and it causes space and it causes mismatches in the offensive player’s favor.

We are really poorly coached defensively. Really poorly coached. And on top of that, our coaches don’t demand defensive effort. Doomed.
Click to expand...

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.
 
RJKarl said:
Doral Moore didn't even start his senior year in HS, yet he leads the ACC in FG% and is Top 5 in rebounding. But that's not improvement to some here.

The player the boards loves to hate Bryant Crawford was about #80 in the nation. He's been in the Top 6 in assists all three years, Top 5 in steals and this year leads the ACC in FT%, but that's not improvement.

Anyone who has watched Sarr this season has real improvement. Well, anyone who has watched objectively. Remember, he had no chance to bulk up over the summer, moved thousands of miles to a country that doesn't speak his native language and plays a completely different style than he's ever played before. There's something else that hasn't gotten much play. He's got to be beyond dog tired physically and mentally. At the very least, he hasn't had a meaningful break since the Spring 2016. He's had his HS games, international tournaments and then immediately to Wake since then. This kid is tough.

If you can't see the improvement of Donovan Mitchell, it's because you don't want to.

But none of the above matters to many here.
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Yea and maybe Sarr, Mitchell and Brown would all develop faster if they got more minutes. DM's rotations are idiotic. As for development NO Crawford has not developed. He has digressed. Coaching has to be done on the mental side, and there is no evidence of this. Decision making by our point guard is baffling and he cant finish. He is having an absolute disaster of a year.

As I've said before DM looks and sounds like he doesn't want or need the aggravation. He seems like a good person, and cares about the kids. But nothing about this program now looks stable or FUN.
DM should just go to the NBA or start a Big Man camp. He is a failure as a college Head coach, and even with better talent the frustration level will just rise. Slightly more wins, continued underachieving.

I wish it were different but it is not, and you are seeing reality set in around the 2019 recruiting class.
 
inspectah said:
Whatever. Skip would have this team at least on the NCAA bubble. Have you forgotten how skillfully he got through to Josh Howard? That's what WF needs above all in its head coach - an ability to motivate players to keep getting better and perform at their best. We haven't had that since he died.
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2006 and 2007 suggest otherwise. Josh Howard was further along as a player when Skip inherited him than Collins was when he got to Wake.

What Wake Forest needs above all in a head coach is a head coach that puts good teams on the floor. I don’t care if he does that through motivation, genius offensive/defensive schemes, #1 recruiting classes, or some combo of the three.

I really don’t understand this board’s obsession with the “great motivator” or “great tactician.”
 
guitardeac said:
We do what I call “fake guard”. Our guys get in a defensive stance and move with the offensive player, but they don’t actually guard. They don’t make life miserable for the opposing player. And it fools people and apparently our coaches into thinking we are guarding. Watch Virginia and Duke. Every single dribble, every single pass is contested and scares you. It looks like your team is going to lose the ball the entire possession. We don’t contest anything. It’s honestly pitiful. Lazy lazy defense.

And here’s one thing to watch. A tell tell sign of bad and lazy defense is defenders rarely fighting through screens. They switch often, which is the lazy way out. Watch our guys defend. We never fight through screens and we constantly switch. It’s lazy, and it causes space and it causes mismatches in the offensive player’s favor.

We are really poorly coached defensively. Really poorly coached. And on top of that, our coaches don’t demand defensive effort. Doomed.
Click to expand...

Good post. Danny Manning always says we need to just guard our dang man, so I think the one way to do that is to stop all the switching on defense and fight through screens. Just guard your dang man. We won't do it though.
 
PTownDeac said:
Good post. Danny Manning always says we need to just guard our dang man, so I think the one way to do that is to stop all the switching on defense and fight through screens. Just guard your dang man. We won't do it though.
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We did that when Chaundee was guarding the ball handler on pick and rolls a decent amount on Saturday. I also noticed it when Crawford was on the ball handler a couple of times, though he has a tougher time fighting over screens.
 
inspectah said:
Whatever. Skip would have this team at least on the NCAA bubble. Have you forgotten how skillfully he got through to Josh Howard? That's what WF needs above all in its head coach - an ability to motivate players to keep getting better and perform at their best. We haven't had that since he died.
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Skip was a friend and I loved the guy, but we were nowhere near a bubble team this year without everything and everyone breaking our way. We simply didn't have enough coming in to replace what we lost from our bubble team of last year.

We lost about 44% of our scoring, our leading rebounder and best three point shooter. We had some good players coming in, but nothing to replace what we lost.

I'm not saying we didn't lose games we should have won this year or that this year isn't disappointing, but we were never a legit NCAA team this year without miracles happening.

RE: Danny's four season:

Years 1&2 - We did about what was expected
Last Year - We greatly overachieved what was expected of our talent
This Year- Disappointing, we've underachieved
Next Year -The Dance or Danny should be fired.
 
RJKarl said:
Doral Moore didn't even start his senior year in HS, yet he leads the ACC in FG% and is Top 5 in rebounding. But that's not improvement to some here.

The player the boards loves to hate Bryant Crawford was about #80 in the nation. He's been in the Top 6 in assists all three years, Top 5 in steals and this year leads the ACC in FT%, but that's not improvement.

Anyone who has watched Sarr this season has real improvement. Well, anyone who has watched objectively. Remember, he had no chance to bulk up over the summer, moved thousands of miles to a country that doesn't speak his native language and plays a completely different style than he's ever played before. There's something else that hasn't gotten much play. He's got to be beyond dog tired physically and mentally. At the very least, he hasn't had a meaningful break since the Spring 2016. He's had his HS games, international tournaments and then immediately to Wake since then. This kid is tough.

If you can't see the improvement of Donovan Mitchell, it's because you don't want to.

But none of the above matters to many here.
Click to expand...

Here's what matters to me: 9-14 (2-9) :(

AND THIS IS YEAR 4 OF THE DM EXPERIMENT.
 
2-16 with John Collins and seniors CMM and Devin on the roster = "about what was expected"

lol
 
Ayo said:
2-16 with John Collins and seniors CMM and Devin on the roster = "about what was expected"

lol
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Yes. In a 3 on 3 tournament with no subs maybe not, but given the overall talent level of the team Manning performed about as expected.

This is the biggest problem I have with this board. Even the most pollyanish posters would have said in April 2014 that making the NCAA tournament in year 3 would greatly exceed expectations.

So what does Manning do? He goes out and identifies guys power in the rankings he thinks have potential to be ACC quality players. He finds a 3* big guy with elite athleticism but ranked outside of the top 150, brings him in, polished off some rough edges, and rides him to the NCAA tourney in year 3. And instead of saying “Wow, he exceeded our expectations” the board changed their expectations halfway through and bitched because Manning didn’t meet them.

This board has an obsession with “maximizing potential” a nebulous standard that 99% of college teams don’t come close to meeting and is virtually impossible to measure.

Go back in your mind to April 2014, be as objective as possible, set reasonable short-term, mid-term, and long-term expectations and then judge Manning against them. I think you will find you reach a conclusion pretty close to Rj’s.
 
Strickland33 said:
You’ll bend over backwards to defend him next year, too.
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I’m not defending him this year. He hasn’t met expectations. Not sure how many more times I need to say that. I mostly think it’s because he whiffed on the 2016 class; a mistake he appears to have remedied in 2018.

I’ve said from the get go that I expected one NCAA tourney through year four and then, after that, sustained performance at 1990-2010 levels or above. That means that if he misses the tournament next year he hasn’t met expectations over the mid-term and needs to go. If he isn’t at least a top 8 seed I will be very concerned.

I’m not bending over backwards to defend him, I’m literally just saying the exact same shit I’ve been saying for the past four years instead of changing my expectations after every game and penalizing Manning for his early recruiting success.
 
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