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Danny Manning Credibility Watch

DeacinBama said:
I would have thought that Wake fans would have learned by now that you don't hire/fire somebody based upon what would happen to committed recruits. If you believe that Manning stinks and Miller, for example, is the answer, then who cares if Chaundee leaves and Hoard decommits? Get the right coach and everything else will work itself out.
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Also, I'd happily trade in a 17-15 season that gets us absolutely nowhere for a 10- or 11-win season that ultimately builds to something.

Players jump ship all the time when a coach gets canned. No guarantee at all that recruits who start their careers with us or current players will stay here the whole time when the head coach is let go
 
DeacinBama said:
I would have thought that Wake fans would have learned by now that you don't hire/fire somebody based upon what would happen to committed recruits. If you believe that Manning stinks and Miller, for example, is the answer, then who cares if Chaundee leaves and Hoard decommits? Get the right coach and everything else will work itself out.
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Yup
 
DeacinBama said:
I would have thought that Wake fans would have learned by now that you don't hire/fire somebody based upon what would happen to committed recruits. If you believe that Manning stinks and Miller, for example, is the answer, then who cares if Chaundee leaves and Hoard decommits? Get the right coach and everything else will work itself out.
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Nobody's making that argument - at least I'm certainly not. It's not one class, it's Manning's ability to recruit compared to a nobody like Miller. All this "Manning's recruiting is overrated" stuff is nonsense. He took a garbage Wake program and in 3 years got a tourney bid and made 2 mid-tier recruits millionaires. Then he and the rest of the team fell apart, but we have an elite class on the way.

It'll take some really, really shitty coaching to suck with a Crawford/Chaundee/Hoard/Sarr/Moore/Chill/Melo group. And maybe that's what we'll get and he'll be fired.

You need a great coach that can recruit a little, or a bad coach that can recruit a lot. I'm a lot closer to being convinced that Manning can recruit than I am to believing Miller is a truly great coach ready to win in the ACC. Let's not forget Wake beat Miller this year, garbage though we may be. You can't just say "if Miller had Manning's guy's he'd have won by 40" even if it's true. Wes Miller isn't moving the needle with high school players trying to make the league.
 
wsc8521s said:
Also, I'd happily trade in a 17-15 season that gets us absolutely nowhere for a 10- or 11-win season that ultimately builds to something.
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Most on this board wouldn’t.

They’d rather have three of [Redacted]’s final season (winning record against an intentionally weak schedule with a couple of feel good wins but no shot at the postseason) than two shitty seasons and a top 40 NCAAT team. Neither is ideal or ultimately acceptable, but I’d take the latter every time.
 
DCDeac said:
Nobody's making that argument - at least I'm certainly not. It's not one class, it's Manning's ability to recruit compared to a nobody like Miller. All this "Manning's recruiting is overrated" stuff is nonsense. He took a garbage Wake program and in 3 years got a tourney bid and made 2 mid-tier recruits millionaires. Then he and the rest of the team fell apart, but we have an elite class on the way.

It'll take some really, really shitty coaching to suck with a Crawford/Chaundee/Hoard/Sarr/Moore/Chill/Melo group. And maybe that's what we'll get and he'll be fired.

You need a great coach that can recruit a little, or a bad coach that can recruit a lot. I'm a lot closer to being convinced that Manning can recruit than I am to believing Miller is a truly great coach ready to win in the ACC. Let's not forget Wake beat Miller this year, garbage though we may be. You can't just say "if Miller had Manning's guy's he'd have won by 40" even if it's true. Wes Miller isn't moving the needle with high school players trying to make the league.
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Also Yup (except for the Miller part of which I have no opinion)
 
RChildress107 said:
Most on this board wouldn’t.

They’d rather have three of [Redacted]’s final season (winning record against an intentionally weak schedule with a couple of feel good wins but no shot at the postseason) than two shitty seasons and a top 40 NCAAT team. Neither is ideal or ultimately acceptable, but I’d take the latter every time.
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StrawMan2.jpg


yeah, I recall tons of people satisfied with Buzz's final season
 
netflixnchildres said:
OK so just so we're clear
Mike Brey = good coach
Danny Manning = bad coach
right?
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Of course, that's the point. I'll take a bad coach who can recruit guys like Collins/Dinos/Hoard/Mucius/Chaundee/Crawford over a great coach who recruits like Bz any day of the week.
 
The 2018 class is not elite. #LoweredExpectations

Some solid strawmen in the last few posts, too.
 
DCDeac said:
But it's also pretty likely that regardless of what Manning does, based on how Manning recruits (path to get paid) we'd lose the top 2 recruits and probably Crawford and maybe Chaundee. Then you look up and you've got nobody Wes Miller coaching Chill/Wright/Melo/Sarr/Moore with no bench in his ACC debut. Then he'd be starting recruiting from scratch. Even if a guy like him is the answer, a Bennett-like coaching effort would be starting with much less talent, so you're looking at another 2+ year stretch of hot garbage Wake Forest basketball.
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DCDeac said:
Nobody's making that argument - at least I'm certainly not. It's not one class, it's Manning's ability to recruit compared to a nobody like Miller. All this "Manning's recruiting is overrated" stuff is nonsense. He took a garbage Wake program and in 3 years got a tourney bid and made 2 mid-tier recruits millionaires. Then he and the rest of the team fell apart, but we have an elite class on the way.

It'll take some really, really shitty coaching to suck with a Crawford/Chaundee/Hoard/Sarr/Moore/Chill/Melo group. And maybe that's what we'll get and he'll be fired.

You need a great coach that can recruit a little, or a bad coach that can recruit a lot. I'm a lot closer to being convinced that Manning can recruit than I am to believing Miller is a truly great coach ready to win in the ACC. Let's not forget Wake beat Miller this year, garbage though we may be. You can't just say "if Miller had Manning's guy's he'd have won by 40" even if it's true. Wes Miller isn't moving the needle with high school players trying to make the league.
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I agree with a lot of the (immediately) above, but it says something very different to me than the earlier post. Earlier, you were referencing specific personnel changes that would result from a coaching change, leading to at least two more years of Wake basketball being lost in the wilderness. Seemed like you were saying that as a reason to keep Manning.

In any case, I think 2019 is going to be a tiebreaker for me WRT to recruiting (but not necessarily overall). I'm also concerned about Hoard's impact next year in light of what I think was Manning's underutilization of Chaundee.
 
The class coming in is good but not elite...probably not in the top 5 classes in the last 25 years.

What’s your definition of an elite class...ours is rated 18 or 19
 
Shake said:
The class coming in is good but not elite...probably not in the top 5 classes in the last 25 years.

What’s your definition of an elite class...ours is rated 18 or 19
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Sorry, top 20 class.
 
DCDeac said:
Of course, that's the point. I'll take a bad coach who can recruit guys like Collins/Dinos/Hoard/Mucius/Chaundee/Crawford over a great coach who recruits like Bz any day of the week.
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I may be a little selfish here, but I'd love if we could get a team like Crawford/Chaundee/Hoard/Collins/Doral all together, and coach them up/develop them. Maybe then we could be a top 10 team again and give Duke and Chapel Hill a run for their money, because thats pretty cool. I don't know if Wellman can find that guy, but I know we haven't found him yet. Why settle?
 
We differ on what’s an elite class...I believe it’s top 10 which Wake has had before.
 
netflixnchildres said:
I may be a little selfish here, but I'd love if we could get a team like Crawford/Chaundee/Hoard/Collins/Doral all together, and coach them up/develop them. Maybe then we could be a top 10 team again and give Duke and Chapel Hill a run for their money, because thats pretty cool. I don't know if Wellman can find that guy, but I know we haven't found him yet. Why settle?
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Couldn't agree more. Is Wellman picking that guy? Or is Wellman more likely to "go with his gut" again and pick a Kevin Stallings type? Manning's outlier bad recruiting year was the Giles debacle, a pretty unique situation. And even that class wasn't as bad as UVA's last class, so it wasn't the disaster folks are painting it as.

Manning's recruiting is pretty close to a known quantity at this point, and I don't think anyone out there who is an established great coach and elite recruiter is coming to Wake.

I still think the perfect outcome is Manning keeps recruiting, Wellman feels like the basketball and football programs are in good shape and he retires, then when Manning hits a wall (or doesn't) Wellman isn't hiring the next guy.
 
netflixnchildres said:
I may be a little selfish here, but I'd love if we could get a team like Crawford/Chaundee/Hoard/Collins/Doral all together, and coach them up/develop them. Maybe then we could be a top 10 team again and give Duke and Chapel Hill a run for their money, because thats pretty cool. I don't know if Wellman can find that guy, but I know we haven't found him yet. Why settle?
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So basically if Collins had only developed slower (or the 2015 class was flipped with the 2016 class) Manning would be the guy? Glad to see you coming around.
 
DCDeac said:
I still think the perfect outcome is Manning keeps recruiting, Wellman feels like the basketball and football programs are in good shape and he retires, then when Manning hits a wall (or doesn't) Wellman isn't hiring the next guy.
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Pretty much this. I think the #ManningOut crowd thinks that we think manning is going to lead us to the promised land or that we think a couple of 8 seeds over the next two years should buy him two more after that regardless of results.
 
The way that RChill slowly backs posters into the "gotcha" corner is a thing of beauty.
 
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