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Next Wake Forest Basketball Coach...

Additionally if we take an unbiased statistical measurement of Wake's basketball output it is pretty clear that the narrative of 'Manning is not much better than [Redacted]' is intellectually dishonest:

KenPom [Redacted]:
259
211
137
117

KenPom Manning
120
118
36
90

Avg KP:
[Redacted] (181)
Manning (91)

Beating [Redacted] is not the end goal of any coach, but can we please just retire that rhetoric? Manning is better....a lot better than [Redacted].

Next year when we finish inside the top 50 for KP, that will make 2 years out of 3 that we have done so. We won't be back to where we should be (dare I say historically competitive....), but we will be making progress. If we have a bummer 2019 class that will slow the process, but if we somehow can make a strong effort in 19, combined with the success we will have next year, the momentum will finally start to turn. I hate to see so many fans jumping off the ship when we are finally making progress towards the shore.

No way not to agree that Manning is better than BZ. The problem is that it's way to close for comfort. Manning is much closer to BZ than to Gaudio.

In year 4 BZ had an RPI of 117. Manning is 90. In year 4 BZ lost 16 games. Manning lost 20. Admittedly BZ had a stupidly easy schedule, but Manning's schedule set up to win 11 out of conference games.

To truly feel significantly better about Manning than BZ, you have to ignore wins and losses. That is pretty damn sad.
 
No way not to agree that Manning is better than BZ. The problem is that it's way to close for comfort. Manning is much closer to BZ than to Gaudio.

In year 4 BZ had an RPI of 117. Manning is 90. In year 4 BZ lost 16 games. Manning lost 20. Admittedly BZ had a stupidly easy schedule, but Manning's schedule set up to win 11 out of conference games.

To truly feel significantly better about Manning than BZ, you have to ignore wins and losses. That is pretty damn sad.

No you don’t, you just have to put them in context, just like you do when you determine that a 26 win UNC team is better than a 26 win College of Charleston team.
 
No you don’t, you just have to put them in context, just like you do when you determine that a 26 win UNC team is better than a 26 win College of Charleston team.

Best damn 11-20 team in the country, right Rchill?
 
It is interesting to me that we are able to compete in the ACC in football since expansion, but suck ass in basketball. I do not ever see us being better than .500 in conference (ever) when having to compete with Duke, Carolina, St8te, Miami, FSU, VT, ND, and Syracuse. It's probably been discussed, but I'd like to hear what PhDeac and Donald Ross have to say about the expansion aspect and losing with our basketball program. Wellman, Hatch, and the BOT have much blame here.....
 
It is interesting to me that we are able to compete in the ACC in football since expansion, but suck ass in basketball. I do not ever see us being better than .500 in conference (ever) when having to compete with Duke, Carolina, St8te, Miami, FSU, VT, ND, and Syracuse. It's probably been discussed, but I'd like to hear what PhDeac and Donald Ross have to say about the expansion aspect and losing with our basketball program. Wellman, Hatch, and the BOT have much blame here.....

The short answer - if we can compete in football, we can definitely compete in basketball.

We have always had to compete with UNC, Duke, and State (and FSU since '91). Nothing new there. Since Miami and VT were added we have made it to #1 in the country, so that's not much of an argument either. In fact, this line of reasoning is very similar to what BobKnightFan argued constantly in regards to football, and then Wake went 8-5 and won a second straight bowl game. It's all about the coach - Wake has all the resources necessary to compete at the very highest level - we just need a solid coach.
 
The short answer - if we can compete in football, we can definitely compete in basketball.

We have always had to compete with UNC, Duke, and State (and FSU since '91). Nothing new there. Since Miami and VT were added we have made it to #1 in the country, so that's not much of an argument either. In fact, this line of reasoning is very similar to what BobKnightFan argued constantly in regards to football, and then Wake went 8-5 and won a second straight bowl game. It's all about the coach - Wake has all the resources necessary to compete at the very highest level - we just need a solid coach.

Wake re$ource$ for basketball will be a whole lot more tangible when the Shah center is finished. Much easier to sell when its actually physically present, and not just lines on paper.
 
It is interesting to me that we are able to compete in the ACC in football since expansion, but suck ass in basketball. I do not ever see us being better than .500 in conference (ever) when having to compete with Duke, Carolina, St8te, Miami, FSU, VT, ND, and Syracuse. It's probably been discussed, but I'd like to hear what PhDeac and Donald Ross have to say about the expansion aspect and losing with our basketball program. Wellman, Hatch, and the BOT have much blame here.....

This was totally predictable and I posted about during the talks to admit VT into the conference. One of Wake's biggest advantages is being in the ACC. It gave us a leg up on Big East programs. When we let more teams into the ACC, we diluted that advantage. Now there are 14 other teams who can make the same claim. VT was never a real threat to us before expansion. Now they've passed us.

Now clearly if we had handled Skip's death better and hired a real coach after an interim year, we'd probably be better off although it would still be more of a challenge to recruit and compete in an expanded league than before.

ACC expansion is one issue that happened along with overall conference expansion and program movement, expanded TV/streaming contracts, and Gonzaga and Butler, that made a job like Wake less exclusive. There's simply a bigger pool of programs who can legitimately get an at-large bid from year to year. There are way more programs in the traditional power conferences plus the new Big East, and even the traditional multi-bid conferences like CUSA, Mountain West, A-10, and WAC are bigger. Far more programs have a legitimate shot at basically the same number of spots. 20 wins can't even guarantee you the NIT.

Expanded TV/streaming means there's more money for coaches. It also means a kid can get on TV playing pretty much anywhere. As far as Wake, TV vs. streaming is a big factor. How many times was Wake on TV, actual TV that someone outside of NC could watch, last year? I'm not going to bother counting, but I know there are plenty of programs in the Big East, CUSA, and even mid-major conferences who were on the ESPN family of networks, CBS Sports Network, NBC Sports Network, and other actual TV options more than Wake. Way more teams get on TV nowadays. Now sure Wake could reestablish that advantage with good teams, but that advantage would help us lure a legit coach.

Gonzaga and Butler are particularly interesting daggers. Based on the 80s and 90s model, Mark Few would have left Gonzaga for a traditional power in the early to mid-00s. His predecessor, Dan Monson left for Minnesota after two good years. Instead, he stayed at Gonzaga and showed that a great coach could consistently win at a small private school no one had heard about before from a minor conference.

Butler came on the scene about the same time and showed that a small program can continually hire good coaches and stay a top program at a small private school no one had heard about before from a minor conference. They won their way into the new Big East and now they're basically a new power program.

The landscape is much tougher for Wake than it used to be. But if we hired a good coach, we could be a regular NCAAT program in no time.

What's nuts is the conference expansion made ACC football more exclusive. The ACC gutted the Big East in football, whereas the Big East rebuilt itself into a strong conference in basketball. There's less overall competition in the football landscape compared to before. Wake offers an exclusive spot in the big time. We get on TV more often than not. We can pick up last minute recruits who committed to MAC schools. The ACC is one of the top conferences. In a more exclusive landscape, our games against the top schools get good TV coverage.
 
This was totally predictable and I posted about during the talks to admit VT into the conference. One of Wake's biggest advantages is being in the ACC. It gave us a leg up on Big East programs. When we let more teams into the ACC, we diluted that advantage. Now there are 14 other teams who can make the same claim. VT was never a real threat to us before expansion. Now they've passed us.

Now clearly if we had handled Skip's death better and hired a real coach after an interim year, we'd probably be better off although it would still be more of a challenge to recruit and compete in an expanded league than before.

ACC expansion is one issue that happened along with overall conference expansion and program movement, expanded TV/streaming contracts, and Gonzaga and Butler, that made a job like Wake less exclusive. There's simply a bigger pool of programs who can legitimately get an at-large bid from year to year. There are way more programs in the traditional power conferences plus the new Big East, and even the traditional multi-bid conferences like CUSA, Mountain West, A-10, and WAC are bigger. Far more programs have a legitimate shot at basically the same number of spots. 20 wins can't even guarantee you the NIT.

Expanded TV/streaming means there's more money for coaches. It also means a kid can get on TV playing pretty much anywhere. As far as Wake, TV vs. streaming is a big factor. How many times was Wake on TV, actual TV that someone outside of NC could watch, last year? I'm not going to bother counting, but I know there are plenty of programs in the Big East, CUSA, and even mid-major conferences who were on the ESPN family of networks, CBS Sports Network, NBC Sports Network, and other actual TV options more than Wake. Way more teams get on TV nowadays. Now sure Wake could reestablish that advantage with good teams, but that advantage would help us lure a legit coach.

Gonzaga and Butler are particularly interesting daggers. Based on the 80s and 90s model, Mark Few would have left Gonzaga for a traditional power in the early to mid-00s. His predecessor, Dan Monson left for Minnesota after two good years. Instead, he stayed at Gonzaga and showed that a great coach could consistently win at a small private school no one had heard about before from a minor conference.

Butler came on the scene about the same time and showed that a small program can continually hire good coaches and stay a top program at a small private school no one had heard about before from a minor conference. They won their way into the new Big East and now they're basically a new power program.

The landscape is much tougher for Wake than it used to be. But if we hired a good coach, we could be a regular NCAAT program in no time.

What's nuts is the conference expansion made ACC football more exclusive. The ACC gutted the Big East in football, whereas the Big East rebuilt itself into a strong conference in basketball. There's less overall competition in the football landscape compared to before. Wake offers an exclusive spot in the big time. We get on TV more often than not. We can pick up last minute recruits who committed to MAC schools. The ACC is one of the top conferences. In a more exclusive landscape, our games against the top schools get good TV coverage.

This is a very good post. Gone are the days where being in the ACC were enough to guarantee good coaches and good recruits. You could be a somewhere near average coach and get a pretty decent rate of tournament payoff. Wake has had good but not exceptional coaches in the past. Starting with BZ, we have had poor coaches in a much tougher environment and the results have been pretty much unparalleled in my lifetime.

An average coach may no longer be enough to get back to the tournament with any consistency. Wake needs to find their K, or Mark Few, or Greg Marshal. They will not be coming to Wake after we know they are that caliber of coach. Wake has to go the bright, young, up and coming coach until they strike. Until an NFL team gets their QB, they will struggle.

Wake will likewise struggle until they hit their home run. Even his supporters know Manning is not that guy. Time to grow some balls and find that guy.
 
It's a great post and it perfectly illustrates how much college basketball has changed since Wellman became the A.D. and how he has not adapted or evolved one fucking millimeter since then and it shows in the results.
 
Agree....

This is a very good post. Gone are the days where being in the ACC were enough to guarantee good coaches and good recruits. You could be a somewhere near average coach and get a pretty decent rate of tournament payoff. Wake has had good but not exceptional coaches in the past. Starting with BZ, we have had poor coaches in a much tougher environment and the results have been pretty much unparalleled in my lifetime.

An average coach may no longer be enough to get back to the tournament with any consistency. Wake needs to find their K, or Mark Few, or Greg Marshal. They will not be coming to Wake after we know they are that caliber of coach. Wake has to go the bright, young, up and coming coach until they strike. Until an NFL team gets their QB, they will struggle.

Wake will likewise struggle until they hit their home run. Even his supporters know Manning is not that guy. Time to grow some balls and find that guy.

This!!!!
 
This is a very good post. Gone are the days where being in the ACC were enough to guarantee good coaches and good recruits. You could be a somewhere near average coach and get a pretty decent rate of tournament payoff. Wake has had good but not exceptional coaches in the past. Starting with BZ, we have had poor coaches in a much tougher environment and the results have been pretty much unparalleled in my lifetime.

An average coach may no longer be enough to get back to the tournament with any consistency. Wake needs to find their K, or Mark Few, or Greg Marshal. They will not be coming to Wake after we know they are that caliber of coach. Wake has to go the bright, young, up and coming coach until they strike. Until an NFL team gets their QB, they will struggle.

Wake will likewise struggle until they hit their home run. Even his supporters know Manning is not that guy. Time to grow some balls and find that guy.

Unicorns don’t exist. You don’t build from where we are to multiple final fours and a championship with a single coach. If you want to move on from Manning because you think he has no more positive steps left to take that’s fine. If you want to get rid of him so the AD who destroyed our program can go hunt unicorns then WTF is wrong with you?
 
Unicorns don’t exist. You don’t build from where we are to multiple final fours and a championship with a single coach. If you want to move on from Manning because you think he has no more positive steps left to take that’s fine. If you want to get rid of him so the AD who destroyed our program can go hunt unicorns then WTF is wrong with you?

What the hell are you talking about. You don't take a bunch of coaches, each slightly better than the previous one, and take baby steps toward something decent.

You find a good coach. Kelsey or Wes or Ryan Odom. These are all good young coaches that are light years better than Manning. You find your guy and stick with him. If you strike out, you take another swing.

These guys are flesh and blood, not unicorns.

The baby step approach does not work because every time a coach leaves there is always attrition and you can end up taking your steps in the wrong direction.
 
What the hell are you talking about. You don't take a bunch of coaches, each slightly better than the previous one, and take baby steps toward something decent.

You find a good coach. Kelsey or Wes or Ryan Odom. These are all good young coaches that are light years better than Manning. You find your guy and stick with him. If you strike out, you take another swing.

These guys are flesh and blood, not unicorns.

The baby step approach does not work because every time a coach leaves there is always attrition and you can end up taking your steps in the wrong direction.

Those guys don’t go to programs in Wake’s position right now. Find me a coach who took over a program in the last 30 years in a similar position to the one Wake’s in right now and took them to multiple final fours and a championship.

If we want to find our own Coach K it might help to make the tournament three straight years including a title game appearance and an elite eight appearance.
 
Those guys don’t go to programs in Wake’s position right now. Find me a coach who took over a program in the last 30 years in a similar position to the one Wake’s in right now and took them to multiple final fours and a championship.

If we want to find our own Coach K it might help to make the tournament three straight years including a title game appearance and an elite eight appearance.

Those 3 would sign tomorrow. We are not ever signing established guys of that caliber. That is a pipe dream that is no longer feasible.
 
3 wins. Manning is 3 wins better than [Redacted].

Some think with enough talent manning finally can be judged in year 5. Some think the way wake has played under manning has shown the coach he is already.

I'm pretty sure we know what ceiling we have as a program. A fringe ncaa tourney team now and then with a coach that really struggles in late game situations.
 
Those 3 would sign tomorrow. We are not ever signing established guys of that caliber. That is a pipe dream that is no longer feasible.

Then history tells us that those guys almost certainly aren’t the long term answer. They are way more likely to perform worse than Manning would over the next 4 years than to turn the program into a national powerhouse.
 
3 wins. Manning is 3 wins better than [Redacted].

1. Some think with enough talent manning finally can be judged in year 5. 2. Some think the way wake has played under manning has shown the coach he is already.

I'm pretty sure we know what ceiling we have as a program. A fringe ncaa tourney team now and then with a coach that really struggles in late game situations.

No one thinks #1, everyone thinks #2.

Coach K was 0 wins better than College of Charleston this year, he probably needs to retire.
 
Perhaps the dumbest argument is comparing wins under [Redacted] and Manning at Wake is the same as comparing wins at College of Charleston and Duke.
 
Those guys don’t go to programs in Wake’s position right now. Find me a coach who took over a program in the last 30 years in a similar position to the one Wake’s in right now and took them to multiple final fours and a championship.

If we want to find our own Coach K it might help to make the tournament three straight years including a title game appearance and an elite eight appearance.

Gary Williams, Maryland, what do I win?
 
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