2020 Democratic Presidential Primary

[tiltdeac]

And I've been killed for saying this, but I also think there's little material difference between a Biden presidency and a Trump presidency.

Wait, really? I mean absent weird impossible counterfactuals like a Trump Presidency with big Dem majorities in the House and Senate?

 

[Louis Gossett Jr]

RJ climate change is the one position where status quo just wont do, the Paris accords are a joke, better than nothing but a joke. Its the only place I actually relate to what I believe most progressives feel on a number of issues. Climate change needs a radical agenda to produce immediate results there's no waiting. Its why I do sympathize without those that feel the same way about other societal failures like healthcare, or income. To them the single small incremental change will be too late, they will die before they dont have crushing medical debt, or student loans, etc... Thats how I feel about climate change, while for you it doesn't truly matter because the dire consequences will come to late for you.

 

[TownieDeac]

Earth destruction? Biden was one of the key people in the Paris Accords. He said that was only a beginning and would do more for climate issues. Again, you are wrong by the facts.

Obama oversaw the largest expansion in US oil production in history, not even close. From 2011 when Obama said about $4 gallon of gas "We can't just drill our way out of this" to 2016, USA became the number 1 petroleum producer in the world. Paid lip service to banning fracking but by 2016 it accounted for half of oil production in the US. Congress lifted the ban on crude oil exports. If you don't remember it at the time, he was being lauded for working towards "energy independence" and "saving you at the pump."

Yes, he put a nuclear physicist at Energy and an air quality expert at EPA. He's not a cartoon supervillain like Trump who basically tried to install industry goons everywhere. But he kowtowed to that sector like only Dems know how. Cap and trade failed when he had Congress on his side and then he didn't have any levers to pull and the academics and industry officials in his cabinet could only sand off the harsh edges of the GOP state and larger industry.

Paris Accord is feckless, doesn't go nearly as far as it needs to.

 

[TownieDeac]

You really cant throw out little difference and then square it with what a single term of trumps presidency has done to the judiciary. If Trump never wins think of all those 5-4 cases that are now falling the opposite way, the biggest being the end of gerrymandering. If progressives had thought long term instead of the here and now they would see that cases like those with a favorable judiciary would have advanced their progressive agenda more than anything possible. With something as simple as gerrymandering destroyed you would get a better representative government which means more progressives in power, meaning easier to push your agenda.

I agree with this too, have acknowledged it too, and I think you're right to point out the full judiciary and not just SCOTUS. Trump is putting 30 year olds FedSoc losers in lifetime roles on federal benches. One of the biggest reasons to vote Biden.

 

[RJKarl]

RJ climate change is the one position where status quo just wont do, the Paris accords are a joke, better than nothing but a joke. Its the only place I actually relate to what I believe most progressives feel on a number of issues. Climate change needs a radical agenda to produce immediate results there's no waiting. Its why I do sympathize without those that feel the same way about other societal failures like healthcare, or income. To them the single small incremental change will be too late, they will die before they dont have crushing medical debt, or student loans, etc... Thats how I feel about climate change, while for you it doesn't truly matter because the dire consequences will come to late for you.

I agree we need drastic changes. For decades on these boards, I've been for huge CAFE standard increases; no new construction that doesn't use renewable energy; building huge wind and solar farms; stronger water standards. But Townie said Biden and Trump would be virtually the same. At least Biden is making progress, Trump is killing regulations and promises to do worse. There is no comparison.

Would I rather have Inslee (who may well become the EPA director) than Biden? You bet. '

Biden may only be a B-, but Trump is an F- and getting worse. Townie said they would be the same or close to it.

 

[TownieDeac]

I agree we need drastic changes.

So vote Biden 2020!

 

[RJKarl]

Obama oversaw the largest expansion in US oil production in history, not even close. From 2011 when Obama said about $4 gallon of gas "We can't just drill our way out of this" to 2016, USA became the number 1 petroleum producer in the world. Paid lip service to banning fracking but by 2016 it accounted for half of oil production in the US. Congress lifted the ban on crude oil exports. If you don't remember it at the time, he was being lauded for working towards "energy independence" and "saving you at the pump."

Yes, he put a nuclear physicist at Energy and an air quality expert at EPA. He's not a cartoon supervillain like Trump who basically tried to install industry goons everywhere. But he kowtowed to that sector like only Dems know how. Cap and trade failed when he had Congress on his side and then he didn't have any levers to pull and the academics and industry officials in his cabinet could only sand off the harsh edges of the GOP state and larger industry.

Paris Accord is feckless, doesn't go nearly as far as it needs to.

You guys might as well be Republicans the way you have been constantly attacking everything Obama. You the Left Yin to Trump's Right Yang in attacking Obama. No wonder people don't show up to vote.

 

[TownieDeac]

I'm attacking the theory of change, not the person. He insisted to his cabinet officials in charge of energy that they pursue market-based solutions to solving the climate crisis. That isn't going to work going forward.

 

[RJKarl]

So vote Biden 2020!

Or you can vote Trump 2020! Keep tearing down Biden helping Trump.

At this point those are the only options.

 

[RJKarl]

I'm attacking the theory of change, not the person. He insisted to his cabinet officials in charge of energy that they pursue market-based solutions to solving the climate crisis. That isn't going to work going forward.

Keep this up and in twenty years, you'll be so burned out that you may do a BKF.

 

[DeaconSig]

Pretty similar lens to the one Jamison2Carter was describing for the difference between Sanders and Biden. And I've been over this before, I think the legislature is a narrow view for judging a presidency. The administration stretches beyond cabinet level appointees, and if Trump has done one thing effectively, it's hollow out the administrative state. Biden would fill it back in with Obama era clones, some of whom were fine, but many of whom continued disastrous Bush era corporate welfare and Earth destruction.

I think you are making my point for me. A Biden administration would be light years away from Trump administration, if only for the following reasons:
1.It would be filled with people who want government to work;
2.It would be filed with people with a baseline competency; and
3.It would be filled with people were invested in trying to actually help the populace.

The "Obama-era" ignores the fact that, gasp, some folks in the administration would be ones that came of age after the Obama admin and actually have different view than those you fear.

 

[TownieDeac]

Or you can vote Trump 2020! Keep tearing down Biden helping Trump.

At this point those are the only options.

Going to support Sanders til he drops out and endorses Biden, then I'll support Biden til he loses to Trump.

 

[Robert M. Pirsig]

I'm attacking the theory of change, not the person. He insisted to his cabinet officials in charge of energy that they pursue market-based solutions to solving the climate crisis. That isn't going to work going forward.

not sure RJ has ever engaged with neoliberalism before so I'm not sure how far you're gonna get.

 

[PhDeac]

i cannot condemn the forced binary between practical voting and enthusiastic voting strongly enough. that's a bizarre way to structure political thought. it's not either/or (several of the candidates this cycle demonstrated that, for example) and it's dangerous because primarily because it leads to a defense of logic like you offer: "If Democrats are required to be enthusiastic, we'll always lose." which (1) implicitly resigns the party to (so far!) nominate the "practical" choice and (2) minimizes participation in democratic politics on the whole (ChrisL likened it to a child's action!) - the very thing you need to do to win an election

The "forced" part is that the candidate you're enthusiastic about may not end up on the ballot.

I mean politics isn't fantasy sports to me, it's meaningful, but I try not to fall into the trap of the cult of personality and fall in love with anyone. They're prone to either let you down or get voted out. That said, Tlaib will be a powerful force for good whether she's a US Rep or not.

I agree with this. I like Tlaib and the rest of the Squad, Katie Porter, and several other up and coming politicians. I hope to spend the rest of my life enthusiastically voting for them every four years. But if they're not on the ballot, I'll make a practical vote for someone who will best advance my interests.

And I've been killed for saying this, but I also think there's little material difference between a Biden presidency and a Trump presidency.

That's just wrong for reasons Sig and others have posted. It's also a pretty strong statement that you don't think progressives in the Senate and the House can pass their agenda unless the Progressive is President.

I think you are making my point for me. A Biden administration would be light years away from Trump administration, if only for the following reasons:
1.It would be filled with people who want government to work;
2.It would be filed with people with a baseline competency; and
3.It would be filled with people were invested in trying to actually help the populace.

The "Obama-era" ignores the fact that, gasp, some folks in the administration would be ones that came of age after the Obama admin and actually have different view than those you fear.

Exactly. The party has shifted much further to the left in 12 years since Obama was making nominations. I'm pretty confident Biden would have plenty of younger progressives in hsi administration.

 

[Robert M. Pirsig]

The "forced" part is that the candidate you're enthusiastic about may not end up on the ballot.

The candidate I was most enthusiastic about has dropped out. Weird attempt at trying to label me instead of responding to my post. Seems healthy.

 

[Robert M. Pirsig]

Just because I don't think Biden is inspirational doesn't mean I am enthusiastic about Bernie. lol.

 

[TownieDeac]

Exactly. The party has shifted much further to the left in 12 years since Obama was making nominations. I'm pretty confident Biden would have plenty of younger progressives in hsi administration.

There are encouraging signs on this front and less encouraging signs. The early list that leaked was very discouraging, but groups he's been meeting with more recently are far more promising (for my own biases, I mean).

 

[PhDeac]

The candidate I was most enthusiastic about has dropped out. Weird attempt at trying to label me instead of responding to my post. Seems healthy.

I meant the general "you" not you Pirsig specifically.

There are encouraging signs on this front and less encouraging signs. The early list that leaked was very discouraging, but groups he's been meeting with more recently are far more promising (for my own biases, I mean).

What leaked list? Who is he meeting with now? Links?

 

[shogun6066]

Stop me if you’ve heard this before. Republican potus has a total economic collapse in an election year. Moderate Democrat wins the election and brings a slight senate majority with him. He raids that majority to fill his cabinet. Very compromised progressive legislation squeaks through while the economy slowly recovers. Public gets concerned about debt and deficit again and becomes frustrated with pace or recovery. Republicans dominate midterm elections and bring a blustery right wing populist into power in 2024.

Yep. That's the cycle our idiot population in this country has us death locked into.

 

[PhDeac]

I fear that, too. That's one reason why I supported a young candidate who was aware of the cycle and saw the need to break it. I don't think a Republican would win in 2024, but I fear Republicans regaining the senate in 2022 and keeping it.