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Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Commander will kill us all

Strickland33 said:
You’re the only person still talking about Bernie Sanders, man. You’re obsessed. Joe Biden is the nominee.
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Then what is Townie talking about when he's talking about people not voting for policies? Progressive policies did very well in state referendums.
 
I’m just gonna make declarative statements in this thread from now on and not engage anyone else

Progressive policies lost in both the 2016 and 2020 primaries, whether because the policies themselves are unpopular or because the average Dem voter galaxy brains themselves into thinking corporate Dems are their best chance at enacting progressive policies
 
No. Bernie Sanders lost in the 2016 and 2020 primaries.

Now you're just trolling with this Bernie = Progressive bullshit.
 
If I were a Democratic voter in either 2016 or 2020 and I favored a progressive agenda I simply would have voted for the candidate I thought best represented progressive ideals
 
But people vote for people, not policies.

Even if you're stuck on that point, you're ignoring the progressive candidate victories in 2018 and special elections since.
 
The left has failed not only to elect their candidates, but to enact their policies.
 
It always amuses me to hear people talk about progressive policy ideas as if they are brand new. Britain enacted the NHS in 1948. Canada's M4A System has been in place since the late 60's. I guess those nations just secured their suburban moderate votes 70 years before we tried it. I'm very excited that Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi just cracked the code to progressivism - soccer moms.
 
The Brits built NHS from ground zero after WWII. They didn't have much to replace.

MDMH, two serious questions - do you want to get universal coverage? Or do you only want to get to universal coverage by the method you want to use and no other way can be considered?
 
Spring renews and nothing gives establishment Democrats more confidence than winning their own primaries *checks in two years later* oh, the Democrats can't even get progressive economic policies through their own congress or state governments? Cool. Lets run it back in 10 years.
 
I have no idea what your point is. I don't know the histories of other countries' system. I don't know who supported them. I assume they had enough support to get through their governments because their supporters made the case for them.

The second post? if ppolicies aren't getting through at the state level, yet they're still popular, that's a tactics issue.
 
PhDeac said:
I have no idea what your point is. I don't know the histories of other countries' system. I don't know who supported them. I assume they had enough support to get through their governments because their supporters made the case for them.

The second post? if ppolicies aren't getting through at the state level, yet they're still popular, that's a tactics issue.
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My point is that moderate semi-wealthy and liberal Americans have had ample opportunities to come around to progressive policies, but they haven't, despite the same establishment Democrat politicians (not really) trying to persuade them for 50-60-70-80-? years. Policies that favor the free market will always win, as long as politicians who favor the free market are in power. Policy will never be more progressive than the politicians writing it and voting on it.

Also, lol at "tactics issue". Virginia could have repealed right-to-work if the Democratic Governor Northam supported it (oh, did anyone predict that?) or the Virginia Democrats. That's not tactics. That's Democrats not supporting labor rights and unions. Right To Work is a Segregationist policy, and the black face Democrat governor supports it.
 
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Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: It's still a debacle

myDeaconmyhand said:
My point is that moderate semi-wealthy and liberal Americans have had ample opportunities to come around to progressive policies, but they haven't, despite the same establishment Democrat politicians (not really) trying to persuade them for 50-60-70-80-? years. Policies that favor the free market will always win, as long as politicians who favor the free market are in power. Policy will never be more progressive than the politicians writing it and voting on it.
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TITCR

Ph undoubtedly knows this and is just pushing on to put points on the board for the suburban mousy brunettes. Pelosi, Feinstein, Schumer, etc. have been in power for decades now in their respective houses and are virtually primary proof and yet they haven’t made an ounce of effort to push these popular policies forward. They even mock them behind closed doors, if you believe the reporting. There’s a reason it’s called the status quo and a Congress consisting of liberal and centrist incumbents orient their politics towards protecting it.
 
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RJKarl said:
The Brits built NHS from ground zero after WWII. They didn't have much to replace.

MDMH, two serious questions - do you want to get universal coverage? Or do you only want to get to universal coverage by the method you want to use and no other way can be considered?
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Of course you won't answer...
 
RJKarl said:
Of course you won't answer...
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RJ, he clearly wants universal coverage. All types of universal coverage aren’t built alike. You all know this. Universal coverage that isn’t structured like Medicare/Medicaid or in some form of single payer model won’t do much to alleviate the economic strain that health insurance is putting on working people.
 
RJKarl said:
Of course you won't answer...
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Of course I want universal healthcare. Universal means there are no upfront costs, no burdensome billing, and equitable access for everyone. Universal healthcare means not having to compete for care with people who have private health insurance.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
My point is that moderate semi-wealthy and liberal Americans have had ample opportunities to come around to progressive policies, but they haven't, despite the same establishment Democrat politicians (not really) trying to persuade them for 50-60-70-80-? years. Policies that favor the free market will always win, as long as politicians who favor the free market are in power. Policy will never be more progressive than the politicians writing it and voting on it.

Also, lol at "tactics issue". Virginia could have repealed right-to-work if the Democratic Governor Northam supported it (oh, did anyone predict that?) or the Virginia Democrats. That's not tactics. That's Democrats not supporting labor rights and unions. Right To Work is a Segregationist policy, and the black face Democrat governor supports it.
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As if Americans care what other countries do. You've identified the uphill battle, but I think you've overestimated how much of it has been fought. Much of the country has little idea how M4A or any real universal health care program would work. When it's presented to them at least in a vague way, they generally support it, especially Democrats.

I don't disagree that Pelosi, Feinstein, Schumer, etc have been part of the problem. No doubt about that. Go back to my posts about old Dems who learned the wrong lessons from getting trounced by Reagan in the 80s. But that's a straw man at best and not a reason to give up on trying to persuade people who really have only known progressive policies have existed for five years.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Of course I want universal healthcare. Universal means there are no upfront costs, no burdensome billing, and equitable access for everyone. Universal healthcare means not having to compete for care with people who have private health insurance.
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Are you willing to get there in a manner other than M4A?
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
My point is that moderate semi-wealthy and liberal Americans have had ample opportunities to come around to progressive policies, but they haven't, despite the same establishment Democrat politicians (not really) trying to persuade them for 50-60-70-80-? years. Policies that favor the free market will always win, as long as politicians who favor the free market are in power. Policy will never be more progressive than the politicians writing it and voting on it.
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mdmh you might like Mirowski's Never Let a Serious Crisis Go to Waste, esp. the first two chapters on the Mont Pelerin Society and related neoliberal thinktanks and institutions. retreading this progressive-liberal-conservative-altright spectrum paradigm bores the hell out of me, at least.

i read it through Scribd or I'd send you a PDF.
 
PhDeac said:
As if Americans care what other countries do. You've identified the uphill battle, but I think you've overestimated how much of it has been fought. Much of the country has little idea how M4A or any real universal health care program would work. When it's presented to them at least in a vague way, they generally support it, especially Democrats.

I don't disagree that Pelosi, Feinstein, Schumer, etc have been part of the problem. No doubt about that. Go back to my posts about old Dems who learned the wrong lessons from getting trounced by Reagan in the 80s. But that's a straw man at best and not a reason to give up on trying to persuade people who really have only known progressive policies have existed for five years.
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I can agree that many Americans aren't aware of foreign policies. It's still a ridiculous lie that progressives haven't been trying to persuade and convince moderates and establishment voters. You and Sean just need to get off twitter for a while. The people you think aren't being reached out to get their politics from the media and from their community. I welcome you to figure out how to get a positive anti-corporate message through Viacom or Comcast, i'm sure AOC would love to figure it out before she runs for President.

As for the community, the black vote is honestly just a huge fucking mystery for progressives. All we seemingly know is that black voters prefer a candidate they are historically familiar with, and someone they believe moderate whites will vote for. The requirement that a candidate seem "electable" is presumably based on Republicans being so historically anti-black that defeating them will always be a larger existential motivation than progressive policies ever could be. Of course that's debatable, but that seems to be the current understanding. So when progressives call black voters conservative, or condescendingly imply that they're voting against their own interests, it's very incorrect. Seemingly black voters (in a major generalization) vote based on who they know/trust, and who they think can win, because they don't believe they can afford to lose the election. It's difficult to envision how an upstart progressive movement could break through that logic.
 
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