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Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Commander will kill us all

I can agree that many Americans aren't aware of foreign policies. It's still a ridiculous lie that progressives haven't been trying to persuade and convince moderates and establishment voters. You and Sean just need to get off twitter for a while. The people you think aren't being reached out to get their politics from the media and from their community. I welcome you to figure out how to get a positive anti-corporate message through Viacom or Comcast, i'm sure AOC would love to figure it out before she runs for President.

As for the community, the black vote is honestly just a huge fucking mystery for progressives. All we seemingly know is that black voters prefer a candidate they are historically familiar with, and someone they believe moderate whites will vote for. The requirement that a candidate seem "electable" is presumably based on Republicans being so historically anti-black that defeating them will always be a larger existential motivation than progressive policies ever could be. Of course that's debatable, but that seems to be the current understanding. So when progressives call black voters conservative, or condescendingly imply that they're voting against their own interests, it's very incorrect. Seemingly black voters (in a major generalization) vote based on who they know/trust, and who they think can win, because they don't believe they can afford to lose the election. It's difficult to envision how an upstart progressive movement could break through that logic.

It's pretty easy -get to know people of color, but don't act the way you are acting here. LISTEN. Don't demand Trumpian fealty for each and every one of your positions.

Under no circumstances use the GOP tactic of "you know what's best for them". This will be a huge problem for you as none of your group here will even listen to anyone else's POV.
 
Of course I want universal healthcare. Universal means there are no upfront costs, no burdensome billing, and equitable access for everyone. Universal healthcare means not having to compete for care with people who have private health insurance.

Well, I think now you're moving the goalposts a bit. Universal healthcare means 100% coverage. One of the reasons M4A is a particular policy built on top of a framework of universal health access is because it proposes universal subsidized health care.
 
mdmh you might like Mirowski's Never Let a Serious Crisis Go to Waste, esp. the first two chapters on the Mont Pelerin Society and related neoliberal thinktanks and institutions. retreading this progressive-liberal-conservative-altright spectrum paradigm bores the hell out of me, at least.

i read it through Scribd or I'd send you a PDF.

How does that relate to Naomi Klein's stuff? Shock Doctrine, etc.?
 
Well, I think now you're moving the goalposts a bit. Universal healthcare means 100% coverage. One of the reasons M4A is a particular policy built on top of a framework of universal health access is because it proposes universal subsidized health care.

Of course. It was a stupid gotcha question, because "Universal Healthcare" currently just means this weeks version of whatever means tested public option bullshit that neoliberal thinktanks can come up with to keep getting funding from Blue Cross & Blue Shield. Universal Healthcare is not a goddamned subsidized public option destined to be insolvent and universally hated.
 
I can agree that many Americans aren't aware of foreign policies. It's still a ridiculous lie that progressives haven't been trying to persuade and convince moderates and establishment voters. You and Sean just need to get off twitter for a while. The people you think aren't being reached out to get their politics from the media and from their community. I welcome you to figure out how to get a positive anti-corporate message through Viacom or Comcast, i'm sure AOC would love to figure it out before she runs for President.

As for the community, the black vote is honestly just a huge fucking mystery for progressives. All we seemingly know is that black voters prefer a candidate they are historically familiar with, and someone they believe moderate whites will vote for. The requirement that a candidate seem "electable" is presumably based on Republicans being so historically anti-black that defeating them will always be a larger existential motivation than progressive policies ever could be. Of course that's debatable, but that seems to be the current understanding. So when progressives call black voters conservative, or condescendingly imply that they're voting against their own interests, it's very incorrect. Seemingly black voters (in a major generalization) vote based on who they know/trust, and who they think can win, because they don't believe they can afford to lose the election. It's difficult to envision how an upstart progressive movement could break through that logic.

Unsurprisingly, I guess, I think this is a really good post.

There is an inherent naivety in Ph's posts, as well as an erasure of decades of activism by actual progressive people to advance progressive causes. In a way, Obama's election was a culmination of these forces from SDS to ACORN, PSL/ISO to IAF that have been oriented towards building community power towards progressive political ends. Even in my lifetime, there have been groundswells of progressive policy popularity that have been crushed as they have been institutionalized and dampened by Democratic policymakers from the anti-war efforts of the early 00s to Occupy in the early 10s and BLM in the mid-to-late 10s. For whatever reason, "the establishment" isn't interested in adopting the progressive dimensions of these ideas. Rather, they're interested in the liberal dimensions of these ideas (e.g., how to make police departments more diverse instead of how to make police departments more accountable to the public, which of course also includes making them more diverse).

Therefore, when people who aren't associated with these movements appropriate the messages without the underlying policy muscle to enact them, progressives are understandably skeptical and not happy about it. The first Obama administration is a great example of this, though I'm probably going to get flamed by folks for bringing this up because McConnell or whatever. Dude ran on some very clear progressive platforms that were hugely popular from comprehensive immigration reform to ending military intervention in the Middle East, or even a relatively easy thing to do like close the Guantanamo Bay black site. You can say that his foreign policy was naive - fine, but why couldn't he close Guantanamo? Why did he have to deport more immigrants than any president in US history?

I think what's actually happening here is less an unwillingness to broaden the tent, but rather a skepticism over what that would actually accomplish. Suburban men and women have been around for awhile. Why haven't they been into these progressive causes during these groundswell moments? Why are there currently 13 people trying to primary a WOC progressive democrat who is absurdly popular in her district? Why is the hatred of "the squad" only slightly less prominent among centrists and liberals than it is on the right?

There are clear barriers to enacting progressive policies. Anybody who has been conscious in the last three decades should be able to clearly see this. Ph is right that it's a matter of tactics and mdmh is right that it's a matter of political will, or a lack thereof. A synthesis, I think, is that you have to have support from the party that holds the power before any tactic short of revolution will succeed (and let's be clear, nothing about Sanders's platform was remotely revolutionary speaking tactically). Centrists and liberals want progressives to ignore six decades of evidence (though I'm not a historian) and progressives aren't willing to trust centrists and liberals who claim to be seeing the light regarding progressive causes. The two sides are at loggerheads, but the ball remains in liberals'/centrists' courts because they hold political power currently.

Anyway, you'll all ignore this or pick out one sentence to quibble with, but I thought I'd at least try articulating the position.
 
Of course. It was a stupid gotcha question, because "Universal Healthcare" currently just means this weeks version of whatever means tested public option bullshit that neoliberal thinktanks can come up with to keep getting funding from Blue Cross & Blue Shield. Universal Healthcare is not a goddamned subsidized public option destined to be insolvent and universally hated.

Yeah, no I understand. It's just tough to hate on semantic drift with a term like progressive when you're doing the same with universal healthcare. You and I are probably on the same page when it comes to the fact that even M4A doesn't go far enough in ensuring a human right to healthcare. Just like it'll be impossible to ever enact a true human right to housing in a capitalist economy, however, M4A is probably the best hope of a somewhat comparable vision succeeding.
 
mdmh you might like Mirowski's Never Let a Serious Crisis Go to Waste, esp. the first two chapters on the Mont Pelerin Society and related neoliberal thinktanks and institutions. retreading this progressive-liberal-conservative-altright spectrum paradigm bores the hell out of me, at least.

i read it through Scribd or I'd send you a PDF.

It is boring, but I think a new avenue of discussion is for progressives and leftists to own up to our continued failure to get black voter support, and examine why that is. Michael Che made a joke about it on SNL Weekend update - all the Bernie Bros pissing and moaning about the Democratic establishment defeating Bernie are really just scared to admit that black people didn't vote for Bernie. There's only so far that leftists can blame the establishment without insultingly casting black voters as mindless drones. I don't want to do that. As far as im concerned, American leftism is dead in the water without black people, and we can't move forward without reconciling that.
 
Maybe you should consider working with people rather than dictating to them and then calling them names if they don't want to act the way you want immediately without any discussion.
 
It is boring, but I think a new avenue of discussion is for progressives and leftists to own up to our continued failure to get black voter support, and examine why that is. Michael Che made a joke about it on SNL Weekend update - all the Bernie Bros pissing and moaning about the Democratic establishment defeating Bernie are really just scared to admit that black people didn't vote for Bernie. There's only so far that leftists can blame the establishment without insultingly casting black voters as mindless drones. I don't want to do that. As far as im concerned, American leftism is dead in the water without black people, and we can't move forward without reconciling that.

There have been some really good Sanders campaign post-mortems that address this. Rather than actually engage with black communities, the campaign hired black people who were involved in the first campaign and popular on social media, but who had little actual political impact and on-the-ground organizing experience. This kind of proxy politics is lazy, to say the least, and more than a little bit racist, and it's great that black voters didn't fall for it.

That being said, why in the fuck did older black voters overwhelmingly vote for Joe Biden... Beyond all of the weird psychological explanations about not trusting white people, dude literally did more irreparable harm to black communities than anybody on that stage (or on most primary stages that I can think of). On top of that, he didn't do jack shit to earn anyone's vote outside of find a more useful and trusted community proxy to hype his campaign.

I think one takeaway of 2016 and 2020 primaries is that race or gender as discrete categories are actually not all that useful demographics for political campaigns to engage with; there is a ton of in-group variation when it comes to political orientations and ideological preferences and it typically varies along the axis of age. Paying more attention to polling that takes into account how issues and ideology vary by age, I think, will do a lot of work in helping future candidates understand how to reach different demographic groups. That and, you know, actual boots on the ground organizing.
 
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Maybe you should consider working with people rather than dictating to them and then calling them names if they don't want to act the way you want immediately without any discussion.

I need a ruling, Townie.
 
Of course. It was a stupid gotcha question, because "Universal Healthcare" currently just means this weeks version of whatever means tested public option bullshit that neoliberal thinktanks can come up with to keep getting funding from Blue Cross & Blue Shield. Universal Healthcare is not a goddamned subsidized public option destined to be insolvent and universally hated.

Medicare for all who want it and have citizenship status and can afford premiums.
 
There have been some really good Sanders campaign post-mortems that address this. Rather than actually engage with black communities, the campaign hired black people who were involved in the first campaign and popular on social media, but who had little actual political impact and on-the-ground organizing experience. This kind of proxy politics is lazy, to say the least, and more than a little bit racist, and it's great that black voters didn't fall for it.

That being said, why in the fuck did older black voters overwhelmingly vote for Joe Biden... Beyond all of the weird psychological explanations about not trusting white people, dude literally did more irreparable harm to black communities than anybody on that stage (or on most primary stages that I can think of). On top of that, he didn't do jack shit to earn anyone's vote outside of find a more useful and trusted community proxy to hype his campaign.

I think one takeaway of 2016 and 2020 primaries is that race or gender as discrete categories are actually not all that useful demographics for political campaigns to engage with; there is a ton of in-group variation when it comes to political orientations and ideological preferences and it typically varies along the axis of age. Paying more attention to polling that takes into account how issues and ideology vary by age, I think, will do a lot of work in helping future candidates understand how to reach different demographic groups. That and, you know, actual boots on the ground organizing.

I don't think you're being fair to the campaign, and that charge isn't completely honest. Bernie's ties to the black community are leftist black radicals, former members of the Black Panthers, etc. Those activists aren't prominent or particularly popular in black culture anymore. It's not Bernie's fault that Harry Belefonte, Cornel West, and Jesse Jackson aren't pursuasive forces. I really think it's just vindictive schadenfreude from the establishment media to try and pin this on Briahna Joy just because she busted their ass on Twitter for 3 years. The election wasn't won or lost on Twitter and people really need to get over their hurt buttholes about it.
 
not saying that strick is arguing this, but this notion that Bernie lost the black vote to Biden 70-20 because Bernie's campaign was mean on Twitter is just fucking stupid, and the people making that implication are very clearly motivated by some desperate social media vengeance - a very pathetic grandiosity of their own online influence. By most accounts, Bernie had the largest and best ground game of any of the nominees, and Biden was broke and not campaigning, so it's not exactly a question of focus or resource allocation.
 
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not saying that strick is arguing this, but this notion that Bernie lost the black vote to Biden 70-20 because Bernie's campaign was mean on Twitter is just fucking stupid, and the people making that implication are very clearly motivated by some desperate social media vengeance - a very pathetic grandiosity of their own online influence. By most accounts, Bernie had the largest and best ground game of any of the nominees, and Biden was broke and not campaigning, so it's not exactly a question of focus or resource allocation.

You are acting no differently than than white people who have oppressed blacks for centuries have acted. From the time of slavery, through Jim Crow, organized segregation, the Civil rights movement, apartheid in South Africa and today for RWers and extreme LWers have had the same mantra towards black people- you know what's best for them and their families.

By not listening and acting the way you do, your condescending false superiority, of course, turns them away from your "movement" and it should.
 
You are acting no differently than than white people who have oppressed blacks for centuries have acted. From the time of slavery, through Jim Crow, organized segregation, the Civil rights movement, apartheid in South Africa and today for RWers and extreme LWers have had the same mantra towards black people- you know what's best for them and their families.

By not listening and acting the way you do, your condescending false superiority, of course, turns them away from your "movement" and it should.

Read a book.
 
I don't think you're being fair to the campaign, and that charge isn't completely honest. Bernie's ties to the black community are leftist black radicals, former members of the Black Panthers, etc. Those activists aren't prominent or particularly popular in black culture anymore. It's not Bernie's fault that Harry Belefonte, Cornel West, and Jesse Jackson aren't pursuasive forces. I really think it's just vindictive schadenfreude from the establishment media to try and pin this on Briahna Joy just because she busted their ass on Twitter for 3 years. The election wasn't won or lost on Twitter and people really need to get over their hurt buttholes about it.

I'm just saying that using those figures as a proxy for on-the-ground organizing killed the Sanders campaign. None of the candidates did anything to actually engage black communities on the ground, but I don't think it's unfair to critique the Sanders campaign on these grounds. As you note, there is a big difference between Twitter and real life, and I think that the Sanders campaign took the wrong lesson from 2016 by getting support from prominent "New Left" luminaries and hiring Twitter influencers rather than tap into policy experts (e.g., Warren) and influential politicians in black communities (e.g., Biden). Reasonable minds may differ and I agree with you that the election wasn't won or lost on Twitter. For Sanders, it was lost on the ground. That's my point.

not saying that strick is arguing this, but this notion that Bernie lost the black vote to Biden 70-20 because Bernie's campaign was mean on Twitter is just fucking stupid, and the people making that implication are very clearly motivated by some desperate social media vengeance - a very pathetic grandiosity of their own online influence. By most accounts, Bernie had the largest and best ground game of any of the nominees, and Biden was broke and not campaigning, so it's not exactly a question of focus or resource allocation.

Definitely not saying this. He had the largest and best ground game of any of the nominees, but he basically punted organizing in middle class and poor black communities, and his efforts to garner support through black surrogates from 60s-90s "New Lefts" just didn't work.
 
RJ, he clearly wants universal coverage. All types of universal coverage aren’t built alike. You all know this. Universal coverage that isn’t structured like Medicare/Medicaid or in some form of single payer model won’t do much to alleviate the economic strain that health insurance is putting on working people.


Medicare now is not, and has never been, structured like the wished-for M4A.
 
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