US News Rankings: We're No. 28! Yay......at $75K a year?

[JuiceCrewAllStar]

knowing how competitive it is to get a teaching job at any university, I have to believe you get out of a school what you put into it

Wake made it super easy with its small classes and teaching-focused professors, but hard to believe the instruction at Wake is that much better than most schools

 

[Deacon923]

As a follow-up, here are the state schools with a higher-ranked law school than Wake Forest: UVA, Cal, Michigan, UCLA, Texas (those are all totally reasonable and I don't expect Wake to be passing any of them). Minnesota, Arizona State, Florida, UC Irvine, Iowa, UNC, Alabama, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, OSU, UC Davis, Wisconsin, tied with George Mason and Wash U. I think students are opting for lower cost law schools. And they're making the right choice. What law schools charge is obnoxious. Do you know how much it costs to have a building and a dude come in and lecture about some cases that are available to the general public? There are no labs, no high-cost equipment. They're just a cash cow for the rest of the universities.

Law school rankings are basically average LSAT and average GPA of your incoming class. And since law school rankings are the only thing law schools care about other than money, it's really that simple. A 3.8 from Cawtaba is going to give you a leg up compared to a 3.4 from Wake, all other factors being even. So, if you're going to law school, go to the cheapest undergrad you can and try to come out with a high GPA and without loans. No one asks me where I went to undergrad anyway. It's always "where did you go to law school."

I'm not sure this is universally true. Certainly a lot of for profit law schools popped up during the 90s-2000s based on this thinking, but several of them have now gone under. From what I know of Wake Law it is not spinning off a bunch of revenue to the mothership, and it may be the opposite in fact. While it is true that law schools don't have expensive labs and chemicals and equipment and what have you, they also do not get big research grants from government and foundations, or spin off money-making patents, or get revenue from treating patients like a med school does. So I'm not sure that a typical law school prints money any more than, say, the undergraduate liberal arts program does. I am dead certain that the medical school at Wake generates a ton more profits. Especially if you include the giant salaries being paid to the top dogs at the med school as part of the real "profits". Nobody at the law school is making that kind of money.

Don't disagree with the rest of your post. I am betting that this big drop is causing some real heartburn over at Wake right now. Not good timing for the new dean.

 

[wakelaw13]

Law schools supplementing other graduate programs is not a new concept, but as you've pointed out the sciences are able to provide their own funding. I'm thinking more along the lines of graduate philosophy degrees.

I have first hand experience with the for profit law schools. That's a whole different ball game.

 

[Louis Gossett Jr]

knowing how competitive it is to get a teaching job at any university, I have to believe you get out of a school what you put into it

Wake made it super easy with its small classes and teaching-focused professors, but hard to believe the instruction at Wake is that much better than most schools

I mean is the actual instruction you get at most schools worth it/even that hard. If you provide high school me the same structure as I was receiving then, so basically eliminate outside college distractions like drinking and partying anytime you want, actual class work is no different than high school.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

I mean is the actual instruction you get at most schools worth it/even that hard. If you provide high school me the same structure as I was receiving then, so basically eliminate outside college distractions like drinking and partying anytime you want, actual class work is no different than high school.

the fuck - what kind of HS did you go to?

 

[Donkey Deac Doug]

the fuck - what kind of HS did you go to?

My high school Chemistry, Biology, Anatomy and Physiology, and Calculus classes were all harder than my first year college classes.

Small town school in West Virginia. There are about 100 high schools in WV. The one I went to was/is in the top 5.

 

[Buttermaker]

WF admissions were need-blind in the past. Several years ago, they dropped this. There is a reason admissions knows how much you can pay

The trick is apply early and check your parents/grandparents can pay full freight. MUCH better chance of admission for borderline candidates.

 

[Buttermaker]

that site shows that only 36% of students are receiving grant aid, meaning that two-thirds of students are either paying full freight or taking on debt

I think what skews this data and rafi's data is the fact that the post-graduation debt at Wake is so low because such a high percentage of students come from wealthy families, especially in comparison to a place like UNC

of course debt is gonna be low if your parents are paying for it

Very tough to get any $ from Mother So Dear.

 

[Louis Gossett Jr]

the fuck - what kind of HS did you go to?

New England private school. I don't know just seems like the hardest part about college is finding time to do the work. In high school you were structured with essentially a 9-5 job worth of school with no deviation. College just do 3 50 minutes worth of class (if you choose to go) and then fuck around. Your experience is also Wake, think beyond that and I have seen plenty of student volunteers, my wife's sister, etc... where the "college work" they are doing is just sad.

 

[Paul Hogan]

Correct take by Gossett.

 

[PhDeac]

Law schools supplementing other graduate programs is not a new concept, but as you've pointed out the sciences are able to provide their own funding. I'm thinking more along the lines of graduate philosophy degrees.

I have first hand experience with the for profit law schools. That's a whole different ball game.

How does law school work different than undergraduate philosophy degrees? Students pay tuition to learn from professors. The sciences generate knowledge and governments or private entities are willing to pay the university for it. Law schools generate people and law firms and other employers are willing to pay for them. Law schools hope those graduates donate.

 

[AMCDeac]

I am going through the stages of grief....denial...anger made its appearance on this thread....and now acceptance. My daughter, who has worked her ass off and has a great academic, athletic and service resume, will not go to Wake. I need to accept it, not give the university or the athletic department any more money, and just become a fan of wherever my kids and my money go. See you guys later. I might post if basketball comes back but I need a break from all things Wake.

Yeah, I went through those stages. I am at complete zen peace with it now. Still love my memories from Wake, my friends from there and I am grateful for the opportunities it opened up for me. On the other hand, I just can't relate to today's Wake at these tuition rates, would have never had the chance to apply when I was a kid, and can't imagine paying that kind of money - I'm just not wired to spend money on a luxury or status purchase.

I would feel differently if I thought Wake did something unique that no other school in the country does where I thought the money could be justified as a value - but it just can't.

On the donation side, I used to give every year but now it seems odd to donate to what seems like a school for rich kids. I don't think it will ever become a "best value" for kids just outside the grant range so why bother when the needle won't move.

Still lots of friends sending one or more kids there and I'm genuinely happy for them.

My oldest daughter's experience at App has been phenomenal. That's a better school for her anyway. Size, breadth of majors, location, skiing - just a better fit for her. Top choice for my youngest, too. Neither care about college football or basketball.

 

[DeaconCav06]

As has been mentioned before, dook law pumped out DR and 2&2(RIP). Make of that what you will.

And Nixon.

 

[AMCDeac]

Can someone do the math on how much you have to earn to climb out of a $400K student loan hole to be comparable with a plumber or electrician? Like, how far out does the earning curve has to stretch before that makes sense? 30 years?

Math won't ever work for judges, teachers, or most lawyers or physicians.

 

[wakelaw13]

How does law school work different than undergraduate philosophy degrees? Students pay tuition to learn from professors. The sciences generate knowledge and governments or private entities are willing to pay the university for it. Law schools generate people and law firms and other employers are willing to pay for them. Law schools hope those graduates donate.

My college buddy who went to Loyola for his philosophy PhD basically got paid to attend school and teach undergrad classes. It was a very different situation.

ETA. You asked about undergrad degrees. That seems pretty similar.

 

[plama]

I attended roughly 66% of my classes during my tenure at MSD. Never did much work besides cramming before a test. Didn't make it through with a good GPA, but got through it ok.

 

[WhatUTalkinBout Willis]

Its definitely stupid money and there is almost no way my 11yo goes to Wake at full freight. He gets into MIT, Harvard, Princeton or Stanford? We can figure it out. Otherwise, his happy ass can end up at UNC or wherever for undergrad and figure it out after that.

That said, I can 100% say that the workload I experienced at Wake did a really nice job preparing me to excel in the workforce by teaching me how to carry a high workload efficiently (after I decided to start going to class). I spent the first several years of my professional life getting the "workday" done by 10am and then spending the rest of my time at work building relationships, learning stuff on special projects, and figuring out how to advance up the ladder. And I saw what friends had workload-wise at UNC and NCSU. It was a huge joke. I went to summer school there just to slam out easy credits by only going to class and listening as they basically taught us the test.

So it's way too much money, but I also think it carries significant value, especially for those intent on making real money by doing more than clocking 8 hours a day at a fixed salary.

And yeah, I graduated with about $35k in debt and finished paying it off at 35, like an idiot.

 

[BirdinBama]

Wake seems like a much different place today, than when I attended (71-75). When I drive through the parking lots, I see students with BMW's, SUV's. I only knew a few people who had cars at all! Lots of well-to-do students there now. I stopped giving money to Wake....doesn't look like it needs any to me!

 

[Paul Hogan]

Wake seems like a much different place today, than when I attended (71-75). When I drive through the parking lots, I see students with BMW's, SUV's. I only knew a few people who had cars at all! Lots of well-to-do students there now. I stopped giving money to Wake....doesn't look like it needs any to me!

Have you gone anyplace else lately that doesn't look like it did 45 years ago or just Wake ?

 

[Donkey Deac Doug]

Have you gone anyplace else lately that doesn't look like it did 45 years ago or just Wake ?

His point is well made. Go to WSSU or UNC-G's campus parking lot. It's not even on the same order of magnitude.

It'd be neat to see a study where the KBB of 1,000 student vehicles on campus parking lots was compared across schools.