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F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

JuiceCrewAllStar said:
and nobody is backing down from uncomfortable conversations

kind of a rich accusation from someone who chose to have a one-way conversation via the rep system for years, the opposite of "an uncomfortable conversation"

people have shared their discomfort with it all for years from our many different perspectives, including the fact that police do in fact often make me feel safe while I hear from members in my community that they do not, that the only time I've ever had a gun in my face was by a police officer because I yelled "we're cruising bitches" out of a window, that I've personally watched police abuse people several times

so I don't really want to hear from you that we're incapable of uncomfortable conversations -- disagreement does not mean disengagement from an issue
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I know you don't want to hear it, but that doesn't mean it isn't obviously true. This place's record speaks for itself. The audience of people who disagree with you guys left one by one (because of your overwhelming arguments, of course. That's definitely the only reason).
 
WokeandBroke said:
I know you don't want to hear it, but that doesn't mean it isn't obviously true.
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Townie, can you issue a ruling?

jhmd claims to be open minded to looking at new solutions but won’t consider anything except the same thing we’ve been doing the last several decades, moar policing.
 
so perhaps they were the ones that were uncomfortable

speaking of avoidance of uncomfortable convos, you surely skip a lot of content and data to cherry pick one clause to respond to


any insight on any of the national level data shared, the increase of spending in MSP, or pretty much any other post of substance sandwiched between your two most recent?
 
jh is a skilled debater because he slyly pushes conversations away from their substance by responding to a small piece of larger argument, often not in good faith, and then people engage on that

but it doesn't go unnoticed by anyone who is paying attention and if it continues then there is really no reason to engage at all

it isn't discomfort, it is simply a rationale response
 
I'm not sure where I saw it, but I read an article recently where some policing experts and academics were talking about the relationship between heavy policing, crime rates, and the recent rise in crime that has jhmd so worried about his fellow man in Chicago. The overall point in the article is that it seems to be possible to drive down crime through oppressive policing, incarceration, state violence, etc. - temporarily. At some point, the excesses of the police state erode the support of the population to the point that they stop cooperating. At that point, crime/violence starts to go up, and in some places can spiral out of control. Police effectiveness at reducing crime depends in large part on society's willingness to cooperate and help the police. Once generations of police misconduct destroys community trust, it's really hard to get back to a situation where communities and police are cooperating again. What the jhmds of the world don't, or won't, recognize is that this is a two way street. The police and their supporters cannot expect to just keep on doing the same hyper-militarized aggressive policing that has got us to this point, and just demand that the communities they police get on board with the program.
 
So an oppressive police state can lower crime but the general population eventually gets tired of losing their rights.
 
It's going to be hard for communities and police to get back together when the community can't seem to universally agree that police should try and stop an active shooter/stabber.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
so perhaps they were the ones that were uncomfortable

speaking of avoidance of uncomfortable convos, you surely skip a lot of content and data to cherry pick one clause to respond to


any insight on any of the national level data shared, the increase of spending in MSP, or pretty much any other post of substance sandwiched between your two most recent?
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Once again, I appreciate ITC's honesty. Here's the local appetite for data that doesn't fit the narrative:

ImTheCaptain said:
also, the police are the ones tracking the 'statistics'
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I will slyly push this argument: your party has been promoting police reform, defunding and abolition. Violent crime is sky-rocketing nationwide, reversing decades long downward trends*1. I asked how abolitionists prevent or explain this alarming trend. Four pages later the closest thing I received to a response was Tunnels speak for "pandemic what are u gonna do?" (S/O ITC). Ph (to his credit) mentioned common sense gun reform (agree, BTW), but we had a couple of guns prior to 2020 when crime was plummeting so it's hard to hang one's hat on that). Mostly I got "You can't prove causation to me and even if you do I don't trust data collected by cops" and the obligatory three references to Trump. Is it so hard to believe that less policing has led to more crime?

*1: Per FBI data, the violent crime rate fell 49% between 1993 and 2019, with large decreases in the rates of robbery (-68%), murder/non-negligent manslaughter (-47%) and aggravated assault (-43%). (It’s not possible to calculate the change in the rape rate during this period because the FBI revised its definition of the offense in 2013.) Meanwhile, the property crime rate fell 55%, with big declines in the rates of burglary (-69%), motor vehicle theft (-64%) and larceny/theft (-49%).
 
You have yet to show the "less policing." Only the talk of less policing.

And to anyone not trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, a rise in crime in a year which saw people losing their livelihoods and starving in record numbers should jump out as highly correlated.
 
As far as I know, there ain’t many (1-3?) abolitionists hereabouts.
 
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WokeandBroke said:
Once again, I appreciate ITC's honesty. Here's the local appetite for data that doesn't fit the narrative:



I will slyly push this argument: your party has been promoting police reform, defunding and abolition. Violent crime is sky-rocketing nationwide, reversing decades long downward trends*1. I asked how abolitionists prevent or explain this alarming trend. Four pages later the closest thing I received to a response was Tunnels speak for "pandemic what are u gonna do?" (S/O ITC). Ph (to his credit) mentioned common sense gun reform (agree, BTW), but we had a couple of guns prior to 2020 when crime was plummeting so it's hard to hang one's hat on that). Mostly I got "You can't prove causation to me and even if you do I don't trust data collected by cops" and the obligatory three references to Trump. Is it so hard to believe that less policing has led to more crime?

*1: Per FBI data, the violent crime rate fell 49% between 1993 and 2019, with large decreases in the rates of robbery (-68%), murder/non-negligent manslaughter (-47%) and aggravated assault (-43%). (It’s not possible to calculate the change in the rape rate during this period because the FBI revised its definition of the offense in 2013.) Meanwhile, the property crime rate fell 55%, with big declines in the rates of burglary (-69%), motor vehicle theft (-64%) and larceny/theft (-49%).
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do you not believe the pandemic has had an affect on crime?


and to your point about the long downward trend in crime, I cannot find a great deal of data, but I do see this report from the DOJ about police per capita: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/nsleed.pdf

seems to me that the big decline does not correspond with a corresponding rise in police officers per capita, which has gone from 2.23 to 2.39 per 1000 residents from 1992 to 2012 -- this tells me that police presence is not the biggest factor in rates of crime

you seem very keen on the small sample size, which happens to be during the worst global pandemic in several lifetimes, in a handful of cities
 
ConnorEl said:
As far as I know, there ain’t many (1-3?) abolitionists hereabouts.
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the idea that there is homogeneity of thought here is just absurd -- you have your LKs and biffs who think abolition is the dumbest thing they've ever heard, your chrisL reform cheerleaders, you mhb abolitionist true believers, your abolition-curious, police-skeptics, and so on

it's true that we don't have many true facists outside the sailors and brads, but they don't even take themselves seriously
 
ImTheCaptain said:
also, the police are the ones tracking the 'statistics'
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Liquid Karma said:
You have yet to show the "less policing." Only the talk of less policing.

And to anyone not trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, a rise in crime in a year which saw people losing their livelihoods and starving in record numbers should jump out as highly correlated.
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See the Minneapolis Police Force example. Manning is down 30%. Violent crime is at a 20 year high. The Washington Post isn't afraid to draw the obvious connection: MINNEAPOLIS — The sound of gunfire has become so familiar across North Minneapolis that Cathy Spann worries she has grown numb to it.

Day and night, the bullets zip through this predominantly Black neighborhood, hitting cars and homes and people. The scores of victims have included a 7-year-old boy, wounded in a drive-by shooting; a woman who took a bullet that came through her living room wall while she was watching television with her family; and a 17-year-old girl shot in the head and killed.

Spann, a longtime community activist who works for the Jordan Area Community Council, cannot recall another time when things were this bad — not even when the city was branded “Murderapolis,” during a spike in violence in the mid-1990s.

The police are not as much a presence as they used to be, Spann said, noting that sometimes when neighbors call 911, officers are delayed in responding or don’t come at all.

It is a complex problem with multifactor causation. Do you believe one of those factors is defunding, depolicing and/or changes in tactics?

https://www.startribune.com/analysis-poorer-mpls-areas-bear-the-brunt-of-rising-violence/572466101/
 
stugotz said:
It's going to be hard for communities and police to get back together when the community can't seem to universally agree that police should try and stop an active shooter/stabber.
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If interdicting homicides in progress is off the table, you've already lost.
 
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