• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Updates to the Joel?

inspectah said:
Prepare to lose it. Wake won't leave naming rights money on the table.
Click to expand...

I understand and obviously I am for Wake gaining as much money as they can but I guess it's just what I'm used to.
 
inspectah said:
Wow, the last page of this thread is sorely lacking in perspective. Decades of systemic failure in the basketball program? Huh? Wake punched above its weight in MBB for most of its history prior to Skip's death. I'm no fan of Wellman, and yes, he tanked the program at the end of his tenure, but we were doing fine before things went off the rails in July 2007. GDO was a superlative coach. We had elite talent throughout most of the 90s and early aughts, and LJVM was a great home venue in those years.
Click to expand...

LOWF is still entrenched in much of our fanbase. We only punched above our weight because we didn't dedicate ourselves to being a heavy weight. We were ok playing the underdog role and now some of our fans can't shake themselves from the idea. Just this season I've seen an insanely large number of Wake fans suggest we're better off if the basketball team doesn't get ranked so we can keep "sneaking up" on teams. The ACC is turning over and the "greats" are retiring. If Wake has any desire to stop playing the underdog role, now is the time to get serious about it.

Some of us are simply suggesting it's time to decide to play with the big boys and that having a proper, modern, basketball dedicated facility is part of that. I was at the Joel on opening night. It has been a great home venue in some seasons in spite of itself, not because it's a good venue for basketball. If we need to have Top 10 team before the place wakes up, it's not a good venue. I remember watching Duncan from the rafters hanging with my friends...we had the run of the upper deck during everything but the rivalry games when opposing fans helped us pack the Joel. We had our 2nd best "attendance" in Wake history Duncan's senior year, but that was driven by season ticket sales...actual butts in the seats still left lots of be desired. Back in those days, a lot of businesses bought season tickets and filled them with opposing ACC fans...but we still got to count them as "attended" for every game of the year. There were season tickets being sold in the corners of the upper decks during those years because the lower deck and upper sidelines were sold out. Sure, it got loud during the big games, but again in spite of itself, not because it's a good, much less great, venue. It's a multi-purpose venue that happens to host basketball games. For the smallest school and fanbase in the P5, it's an awful facility. If Wake is serious about being a great team, it should have a great venue. Stop settling for LOWF in the crappy old LJVM.
 
Last edited:
BiffTannen said:
Buy five acres on the south side of town and open Lawrence Joel Memorial Park.
Click to expand...

Seriously a good place for the War Memorial would be somewhere along the Salem Creek greenway that opened up downtown
 
That's all well and good. I just take issue with this nutty premise that the Joel is the only thing holding us back from being national title contenders year in and year out. We're not suddenly going to become Duke under K if we build a new arena. It doesn't work like that.
 
Our inability to win in postseason is what has held this program back from taking the next step and then two terrible coaching hires.

The reality is that the current location where Wake plays basketball is about the only realistic location to play basketball with the small campus footprint and lack of parking as it is.

I think we will refurbish the joel and DR will still have conniptions and any aspect of us not becoming a national power in hoops will be blamed on people disagreeing with him about this one thing which really isn't that significant in the basketball program's success or failure. When Wake has been pretty good, we almost never lose at home.
 
Twenty years of arguing Chris and you never address the recruiting aspect—the critical value that the proper home venue brings.

And you are right, if we renovate instead of getting this right I will keep talking until they bury me. In every forum. Public and otherwise. Just as I have done. I will not stop.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Our inability to win in postseason is what has held this program back from taking the next step and then two terrible coaching hires.

The reality is that the current location where Wake plays basketball is about the only realistic location to play basketball with the small campus footprint and lack of parking as it is.

I think we will refurbish the joel and DR will still have conniptions and any aspect of us not becoming a national power in hoops will be blamed on people disagreeing with him about this one thing which really isn't that significant in the basketball program's success or failure. When Wake has been pretty good, we almost never lose at home.
Click to expand...

Bingo!! I'm ok with upgrading the Joel as long as it's done in the right way.
 
LOL. Yeah, but for the Joel maybe we could have had guys like Rodney Rogers, Tim Duncan, Josh Howard, or Chris Paul. Oh, the what ifs.
 
inspectah said:
LOL. Yeah, but for the Joel maybe we could have had guys like Rodney Rogers, Tim Duncan, Josh Howard, or Chris Paul. Oh, the what ifs.
Click to expand...

I don’t understand your argument here. The Joel wasn’t outdated 20 years ago, and people didn’t have 70in flat screens and little handheld TVs to watch high def basketball games. The Joel may have once been great, and after that it was sufficient, but now time has passed it by.
 
inspectah said:
That's all well and good. I just take issue with this nutty premise that the Joel is the only thing holding us back from being national title contenders year in and year out. We're not suddenly going to become Duke under K if we build a new arena. It doesn't work like that.
Click to expand...

I have never made that argument. The argument is to win long term we need to have all factors correct. Coach, AD, stadium, fans. All A++ As alums the only thing we truly control is the venue.

Those against a proper stadium only argue “it’s not that bad” or “it doesn’t matter much that we suck at that part.” In any aspect of business or life, the results from that approach on the overall landscape are self-evident.
 
donaldross said:
I have never made that argument. The argument is to win long term we need to have all factors correct. Coach, AD, stadium, fans. All A++ As alums the only thing we truly control is the venue.

Those against a proper stadium only argue “it’s not that bad” or “it doesn’t matter much that we suck at that part.” In any aspect of business or life, the results from that approach on the overall landscape are self-evident.
Click to expand...

alums don't control the venue.

unless you mean "alums willing to donate $100 million control the venue".
 
GoDeacsGo said:
Can't remember, did people complain about the size of the Joel with Skip and Dino were head coaches? Isn't it just a matter of winning? Heck you see most teams with smaller arenas are not even remotely filling them up. Anyone know a site showing ACC BB attendance? Curious where wake falls.
Click to expand...

People have been complaining about the size of the Joel since Odom was the coach.

 
GoDeacsGo said:
Can't remember, did people complain about the size of the Joel with Skip and Dino were head coaches? Isn't it just a matter of winning?
Click to expand...

I don't believe I missed but 2-3 Skip coached home games. It's not like we always had a packed house. The Duke game that everyone likes to watch YouTube videos of wasn't the norm by any means. And again, the numbers in the link below are announced attendance which is always much more than actual attendance for anything but the biggest games since it includes all season tickets sold. To me, we should design a gym so that we're mostly full in a down year like 06-07, rather than design such that we have room for casual fans and opposing fans to fill up in the great years.

[url]https://www.bloggersodear.com/2019/4/5/18293132/wake-forest-basketball-attendance-numbers-just-how-much-have-they-declined-wellman-manning-[name redacted][/URL]
 
inspectah said:
LOL. Yeah, but for the Joel maybe we could have had guys like Rodney Rogers, Tim Duncan, Josh Howard, or Chris Paul. Oh, the what ifs.
Click to expand...

Your strawn men aren't helping your cause.

Answer two things:
1) Do you think the Joel is the optimum venue for Wake Forest basketball?
2) If no, do you think an optimum venue for Wake Forest basketball would contribute to better recruiting and better home court advantage?
 
I honestly don't think our recruiting would've been much different over the last 20 years if we were playing in an optimal venue, as long as we had the same coaches in place. [Redacted] and Manning recruiting to a smaller arena still would've had shit results. And Skip/Gaudio obviously had good recruiting results.

I think there's an argument to be made that having a smaller arena could've attracted better coaches than we got in [Redacted]/Manning, and THAT could've improved the recruiting. But then you look at who was doing the hiring at that time, and maybe we would've ended up with the same coaches regardless. And BDE Currie came in and hired BDE Forbes despite our arena.
 
RacerDeac said:
Your strawn men aren't helping your cause.

Answer two things:
1) Do you think the Joel is the optimum venue for Wake Forest basketball?
2) If no, do you think an optimum venue for Wake Forest basketball would contribute to better recruiting and better home court advantage?
Click to expand...

I think it’s possible to say that this is very likely true, but the ramifications of us not playing in the optimum arena don’t have to be that we missed out on national championships, which is what you alluded to. You implied that who knows, maybe we would have won a national championship with better facilities. And my answer to that is, no. At certain points we had the coaching and we had the recruits, but facilities wasn’t the missing piece that would have put us over the edge.

I’m happy for us to move forward with improvements however they may come about. They’re definitely needed. They will help along with a lot of other things in our program operating at a high level.
 
Donald Ross has been right for 20 years, it shouldn't even be a question as to whether to renovate or build anew
 
College basketball attendance is down across every level. The quality of the product no where near what it once was. I think the Dean Dome sucks as a venue. 10 foot concourses. I also think Cameron Indoor sucks. Makes sense to downsize. College football has swamped college football. Hard to pry even a few bucks away from football these days. My core opinion is get a good coach cuz good coaches don't give a shit what they play in. They just want to win.
 
Dean Dome is one of the worst venues in college basketball IMO. It has all the same issues as the Joel, and is even worse in many ways. Even in great years for Wake and UNC, I've never had a problem getting a ticket there for face. If 21K is too big for UNC, 14K is WAY too big for Wake Forest.
 
Vast majority of new college basketball construction is downsizing and building for atmosphere vs max attendance. I would analyze the basketball seating capacity vs football seating capacity for Big 5 schools, I bet most schools have 5 times more football seating than basketball, so 5:1, where Wake is 2:1
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top