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A college degree is a lousy investment

Rafi said:
As was discussed, the number that do not take any loans at Wake is 50%. The 36% number is either old or doesn’t include federal and/or private loans.

But again, that’s why I included the debt for those that take loans. $36,000 at Wake vs $28,000 at UNCC, for example.
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36% comes from Wake itself
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
36% comes from Wake itself
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Yep, as best I can tell, that is correct. Another 14% receive financial aid and/or loans from federal money, other organizations, and private loans. So 50% receive some form of financial aid, and that group has an average debt of $36,000 after graduation. The other 50% has an average debt of $0, so for all students the average debt is $18,000, which is why I used the $36,000 figure.
 
Rafi said:
Yep, as best I can tell, that is correct. Another 14% receive financial aid and/or loans from federal money, other organizations, and private loans. So 50% receive some form of financial aid, and that group has an average debt of $36,000 after graduation. The other 50% has an average debt of $0, so for all students the average debt is $18,000, which is why I used the $36,000 figure.
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*Less than 50% receive some form of financial aid
*More than 50% do not receive some form of financial aid (and therefore paid full sticker price)

If you are including those who take private loans in the group of those who receive "financial aid", that is misleading, because if you take a loan to buy a commodity, you are still in fact paying the full sticker price
 
thatguy2016 said:
*Less than 50% receive some form of financial aid
*More than 50% do not receive some form of financial aid (and therefore paid full sticker price)

If you are including those who take private loans in the group of those who receive "financial aid", that is misleading, because if you take a private loan to buy a commodity, you are still in fact paying the full sticker price
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We have more than beat this into the ground. The reason the debt numbers are what they are is because that split is essentially 50/50 (look at the math).
 
the math that you have posted here without attribution? after stating, incorrectly, that most students do not pay full sticker price?
 
thatguy2016 said:
the math that you have posted here without attribution? after stating, incorrectly, that most students do not pay full sticker price?
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Here's the $36,000 for those with financial aid/loans (the most recent number looks like it might be $34,000 on other sites) https://www.collegeconfidential.com...% of Wake Forest,$36,016 of student loan debt.

Here's the $18,000 for all grads (I used the middle income number) https://www.usnews.com/best-college...an debt among,borrowers who graduated is $186.
 
Rafi said:
Here's the $36,000 for those with financial aid/loans (the most recent number looks like it might be $34,000 on other sites) https://www.collegeconfidential.com...% of Wake Forest,$36,016 of student loan debt.

Here's the $18,000 for all grads (I used the middle income number) https://www.usnews.com/best-college...an debt among,borrowers who graduated is $186.
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the middle income number is $18,500, not $18,000. That is not the mean, which is not given. The median, from the article, is $19,500. So you are using multiple sources and rounding (down).

100% of the reason I commented on this thread is that you stated, incorrectly, that "most students do not pay the full sticker price". This is directly refuted on the WF admissions page. Comparing numbers from College Confidential and (incorrect) numbers from US News and calling this "math" does not change this simple fact.

Carry on...
 
thatguy2016 said:
the middle income number is $18,500, not $18,000. That is not the mean, which is not given. The median, from the article, is $19,500. So you are using multiple sources and rounding (down).

100% of the reason I commented on this thread is that you stated, incorrectly, that "most students do not pay the full sticker price". This is directly refuted on the WF admissions page. Comparing numbers from College Confidential and (incorrect) numbers from US News and calling this "math" does not change this simple fact.

Carry on...
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LOL. Sorry, $18,500 not $18,000.
 
How’d this argument even get here? Didn’t rafi start this because someone dared to say wake was obscenely expensive?
 
06deacon said:
How’d this argument even get here? Didn’t rafi start this because someone dared to say wake was obscenely expensive?
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Correct! Someone posted that the 4 year cost for Wake could be $400,000, and I pointed out that for those that take loans, the average debt at graduation is $36,000 (sorry, $36,016). And away we went!
 
Rafi said:
Correct! Someone posted that the 4 year cost for Wake could be $400,000, and I pointed out that for those that take loans, the average debt at graduation is $36,000 (sorry, $36,016). And away we went!
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couldn’t someone have taken out loans of 36k and still have had a 4 year cost of $400,000? Since you do have to pay back that $36k.
 
06deacon said:
couldn’t someone have taken out loans of 36k and still have had a 4 year cost of $400,000? Since you do have to pay back that $36k.
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Yes, they would have had a 4-year cash outlay of up to $364,000, which seems significant (even if they are RICH !) followed by owing the additional $36k plus interest

Rafi's truth-optional takes on this particular issue are really curious, given his measured approach to just about everything else here
 
Rafi said:
Correct! Someone posted that the 4 year cost for Wake could be $400,000, and I pointed out that for those that take loans, the average debt at graduation is $36,000 (sorry, $36,016). And away we went!
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That was me.

I'm one of those folks in the middle who's daughter does not qualify for financial aid (I ran our numbers through Wake's "calculator") but we live a low debt, modest life (net worth would not raise eyebrows, two professional incomes, 2,000 square foot house in a nice neighborhood, late model non-luxury cars, no second home, play public golf courses, kids in good public schools, Episcopal 40 something white folks wearing business casual every day, you get the idea. We're fucking basic.)

I'm not going to get into the loan arithmetic other than to say I think it's skewed because a lot of families pay sticker. Our town sends a fair amount of kids to Wake, and of those we know three families well who currently have kids enrolled. All three pay sticker. One is taking out a HELOC so their kid is not in debt.

Two kids live on campus, one lives off, all are in greek life, have cars at school, take spring break and other road trips, etc. All the kids work but only during the summer so it doesn't help much. The parents uniformly scoff at the cost of attendance posted on the Wake website and have said, in one way or another, that its going to take $400K to get their kid an undergrad degree. So it's not just coming from my jaded imagination.
 
thatguy2016 said:
Rafi's truth-optional takes on this particular issue are really curious, given his measured approach to just about everything else here
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I'm just looking at the published numbers and having a discussion, just like I assume you are. "Truth-optional" seems a bit harsh and unnecessary. Also, if you're going to be stickler about the numbers, then I wouldn't use $400,000. Tuition for next year looks like it is $61,128 (x 4 = $244,512) and if you include all expenses (room and board, travel, personal expenses, etc.) the estimate is $83,054 (x 4 = $332,216).

I would guess the individual situations are truly all over the place. For example, for those that have the Wake tuition benefit, ROTC, or other programs and take no loans, they don't fall into the "loan" group but they also pay way less than the published tuition. I think there is likely a really wide distribution within both the "loan" and "no loan" groups.
 
Brangus said:
That was me.

I'm one of those folks in the middle who's daughter does not qualify for financial aid (I ran our numbers through Wake's "calculator") but we live a low debt, modest life (net worth would not raise eyebrows, two professional incomes, 2,000 square foot house in a nice neighborhood, late model non-luxury cars, no second home, play public golf courses, kids in good public schools, Episcopal 40 something white folks wearing business casual every day, you get the idea. We're fucking basic.)

I'm not going to get into the loan arithmetic other than to say I think it's skewed because a lot of families pay sticker. Our town sends a fair amount of kids to Wake, and of those we know three families well who currently have kids enrolled. All three pay sticker. One is taking out a HELOC so their kid is not in debt.

Two kids live on campus, one lives off, all are in greek life, have cars at school, take spring break and other road trips, etc. All the kids work but only during the summer so it doesn't help much. The parents uniformly scoff at the cost of attendance posted on the Wake website and have said, in one way or another, that its going to take $400K to get their kid an undergrad degree. So it's not just coming from my jaded imagination.
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Sure, I don't doubt that at all. I only know two kids currently at Wake, both from families similar to what you describe. One pays $0 in tuition (ROTC) and the other pays $7,000 per year (faculty tuition benefit) - I have not asked, but I assume neither family is taking out loans. As I just posted, I think the financial situations are truly all over the place.
 
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