A college degree is a lousy investment

[Toogs]

Elite private schools have the highest graduation rates - Princeton, Duke, Georgetown, etc. are all 90%. There are probably several reasons why - smart/driven/organized students, students aren't part time, highly involved parents, good advising, ability to get needed classes, etc.

I would venture "not having a job while you are in school" is very important for this metric. Once upon a time, working more than 8 hours per week during college was the singular defining metric for graduating on time.

 

[wakephan09]

I would venture "not having a job while you are in school" is very important for this metric. Once upon a time, working more than 8 hours per week during college was the singular defining metric for graduating on time.

I agree. I almost posted it before but didn't: full-time student with full-time job way more common than part-time student, even when you account for long-term associate's degree seeking students at CCs

 

[ImTheCaptain]

It’s scientifically proven that it’s harder to graduate in four years when you have to do your own laundry.

people at wake have laundry service now?

 

[Rafi]

I agree. I almost posted it before but didn't: full-time student with full-time job way more common than part-time student, even when you account for long-term associate's degree seeking students at CCs

Agreed. Of note, it looks like about 14% of the students at UNCC are part time.

 

[BillBrasky]

Rafi, who has a higher four-year graduation rate UNCC students or Wake basketball players? Since that statistic apparently doesn’t count transfers who graduate.

 

[Rafi]

Rafi, who has a higher four-year graduation rate UNCC students or Wake basketball players? Since that statistic apparently doesn’t count transfers who graduate.

Oh no. You got me good on this one.

I don’t know what happens to the UNCC students. 29% graduate in 4 years and 53% graduate in 8 years, so it seems a decent number are staying at UNCC. Do you think a lot transfer to other schools? I would guess there are probably not a lot that are transferring, since UNCC is a 4 year college, but I don’t know for sure.

 

[thatguy2016]

"In 2019-2020, 36% of our full-time beginning undergraduates received grant/scholarship aid."

I'm just posting the numbers. When you have kids that are looking at colleges, it quickly becomes clear that the sticker price is not what most people pay. Numbers such as debt at graduation, 4 year grad rates, etc. are much more relevant than the listed tuition. Wake isn't in the top 100 (maybe not the top 200) of colleges with the highest debt at graduation. That's why US News has Wake ranked as the 24th "best value" school.

sticker price is what 64% of full-time beginning undergraduates pay.

many people that leave without debt chose to pay the full sticker price up front; not sure why that would influence whether the school is a "best value" (they still paid $300,000)

 

[Rafi]

sticker price is what 64% of full-time beginning undergraduates pay.

many people that leave without debt chose to pay the full sticker price up front; not sure why that would influence whether the school is a "best value" (they still paid $300,000)

As was discussed, the number that do not take any loans at Wake is 50%. The 36% number is either old or doesn’t include federal and/or private loans.

But again, that’s why I included the debt for those that take loans. $36,000 at Wake vs $28,000 at UNCC, for example.

 

[Rafi]

sticker price is what 64% of full-time beginning undergraduates pay.

many people that leave without debt chose to pay the full sticker price up front; not sure why that would influence whether the school is a "best value" (they still paid $300,000)

USNews named Wake the #24 best value. Here’s their methodology, if interested:

Academic quality (overall score in 2022 Best Colleges rankings) relative to the average discount price paid by full-time undergraduates after receiving need-based grants. This indicator is weighted 50%.

The percentage of all full-time undergraduates receiving need-based scholarships or grants (20% weight).

The average discount from the school's total sticker price for full-time undergraduates (10% weight).

Among 2020-2021 full-time undergraduates who received need-based aid, the percentage of that percentage who also received a grant or scholarship – aid that students don't have to pay back (20% weight).

 

[thatguy2016]

As was discussed, the number that do not take any loans at Wake is 50%. The 36% number is either old or doesn’t include federal and/or private loans.

But again, that’s why I included the debt for those that take loans. $36,000 at Wake vs $28,000 at UNCC, for example.

https://admissions.wfu.edu/affordability/

Like almost half of all undergraduate students at Wake Forest receiving financial assistance in the form of loans, grants or both, you have options.

Almost half

meaning, more than half do not receive financial assistance

meaning, "most" students pay full price

 

[thatguy2016]

USNews named Wake the #24 best value. Here’s their methodology, if interested:

Academic quality (overall score in 2022 Best Colleges rankings) relative to the average discount price paid by full-time undergraduates after receiving need-based grants. This indicator is weighted 50%.

The percentage of all full-time undergraduates receiving need-based scholarships or grants (20% weight).

The average discount from the school's total sticker price for full-time undergraduates (10% weight).

Among 2020-2021 full-time undergraduates who received need-based aid, the percentage of that percentage who also received a grant or scholarship – aid that students don't have to pay back (20% weight).

none of this appears to be applicable to the student who pays full price

great value...for those who get the discount

 

[Rafi]

none of this appears to be applicable to the student who pays full price

great value...for those who get the discount

Correct. Families that do not get the discount are rich.

 

[thatguy2016]

Correct. Families that do not get the discount are rich.

last time I ran the net price calculator, I ran several scenarios to see where the breakpoint was. I got down to a family of 3 with $150k in gross (pre-tax) earnings, modest savings, and a $400,000 house being asked to pay $80,000 annually for a WF education. People have differing definitions of "rich"...I would say most reasonable people would agree that hypothetical family would have no business spending well over half of their net income sending a kid to WF

 

[Rafi]

last time I ran the net price calculator, I ran several scenarios to see where the breakpoint was. I got down to a family of 3 with $150k in gross (pre-tax) earnings, modest savings, and a $400,000 house being asked to pay $80,000 annually for a WF education. People have differing definitions of "rich"...I would say most reasonable people would agree that hypothetical family would have no business spending well over half of their net income sending a kid to WF

I assume someone in that situation would apply for non-need based aid. I posted previously that Wake gives $70 million annually in need-based aid and $10 million in non need-based.

 

[thatguy2016]

I assume someone in that situation would apply for non-need based aid. I posted previously that Wake gives $70 million annually in need-based aid and $10 million in non need-based.

How generous! $10 million is a lot of money. However, when cost of attendance is $83,324 per year, $10 million evaporates pretty quickly.

https://financialaid.wfu.edu/merit/

Wake Forest offers merit-based scholarships to fewer than 3% of first-year applicants.

oh, and this:

Some merit-based scholarships also require financial need.

 

[DeaconCav06]

I can’t speak to what’s happened in the last 15 years but Brasky’s contention that it’s because of grade inflation is absolutely laughable to me.

Wake notoriously actively combated grade inflation when I was there.

Wake also gave me a distinct advantage in law school when all of my classmates said it was the hardest thing they’d ever done and I thought it was a step down from the workload of Wake.

 

[Rafi]

How generous! $10 million is a lot of money. However, when cost of attendance is $83,324 per year, $10 million evaporates pretty quickly.

https://financialaid.wfu.edu/merit/



oh, and this:

So is your argument that half of the Wake students are rich and pay full price, half take out loans and get financial assistance and end with $36,000 in debt, and there is a middle group that isn’t super rich and can’t get merit scholarships and they would have to make hard decisions about paying that much to Wake or other elite private schools? If so, I agree.

 

[thatguy2016]

So is your argument that half of the Wake students are rich and pay full price, half take out loans and get financial assistance and end with $36,000 in debt, and there is a middle group that isn’t super rich and can’t get merit scholarships and they would have to make hard decisions about paying that much to Wake or other elite private schools? If so, I agree.

well, earlier you said that half of Wake students did not pay full sticker price, so you didn't agree.

 

[Rafi]

well, earlier you said that half of Wake students did not pay full sticker price, so you didn't agree.

I did? From the published numbers it seems clear that 50% get financial aid and 50% do not. I don’t think I wrote anything differently.

 

[thatguy2016]

I did? From the published numbers it seems clear that 50% get financial aid and 50% do not. I don’t think I wrote anything differently.

WF says the majority do not, currently, and that two years ago 64% did not. you said the majority do.