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[stonz]

If Dino's first class was AT&T, then [Redacted]'s first class was Travis'.

I'd say Dino's first real class was CJ and Ari, which is better than Green/Fields/Fischer, but certainly nothing to brag about.

 

[tau06]

What makes CMM and Devin Thomas "legit ACC talents" that doesn't also stand for some of our current players that were equally highly touted out of HS?

If they don't perform up to you expectations based off youtube clips, will you blame [Redacted] or put it up to them not being very good next season?

Honest question.

Also, dv7, i'd say CMM is ranked closest to Travis, and would expect a Travis like impact on the team (Believe Travis was probably ranked a little higher than Codi coming out but would be the closest rating wise. Can't really explain Carson's struggles (compared to his ratings) other than 7 footers seem to have the largest variation in how well they adapt to college, so hopefully it'll kick in with him soon. I believe the 2012 class of bigs is pretty well regarded as one of the better classes of bigs in a while so that also gives me confidence that Devin will be a "hit" for the deacs.

 

[PhDeac]

If Dino's first class was AT&T, then [Redacted]'s first class was Travis'.

I'd say Dino's first real class was CJ and Ari, which is better than Green/Fields/Fischer, but certainly nothing to brag about.

Not worth parsing since Odom and Skip make the point better anyway.

 

[tau06]

So you think Wake will be in the top 6 next year? Noted.

Not exactly what I was trying to say if that's how it came out.

I think in terms of talent on the teams next season Wake would fall after:

UNC
Duke
FSU
UVA
NCSU
MD

And then Wake falls in the next group with Miami, GT, and probably maybe VT.

And then i'd have Clemson and BC.

So I guess top 6 was being a little generous at first glance but there should be no reason, at least if Bz IS a competent coach, that WF should be in the fight for spots 6-8 or so in the ACC.

And as I type this I get more depressed about WF basketball :rulz:

 

[thedeacfan]

We may get more wins next year by default b/c our overall talent level will be higher, but have you seen anything from Bz the last two years that indicates that he has the ability to develop that talent, form that talent into a team, or implement a system that will get the maximum results out of that talent?

I haven't, and that scares me more than anything else about Bz. I fully expect that will we underachieve and under perform as long as Bz is the coach here. The talent level may increase enough that we're an underachieving, under performing team with 18 wins instead of an underachieving, under performing team with 13 or 14 wins but we'll still be underachieiving, under performing, and frustrating...

^ +1 ^

... We'll know more next year and, I personally think many of the skeptics will be surprised.

No, surprised is not the right word. The right word is disappointed - that is if Buzz is still anywhere near our basketball program next year. Disappointment - as in gut wrenching, hope destoying, Joel emptying... disappointment.

I tend to air on the side of giving him a chance with a team that I feel actually has the talent, if coached properly, will be able to fight for a possible NIT/bubble spot. I don't think any coach in the world could have put together a respectable team the last two seasons. Too many holes. I've you talk about me like i'm some complete idiot who is going around touting Bzz as the next Coach K, when I feel i'm being decently rational in my analysis. I've said on other threads he's losing any support I have left for him after performances like the Clemson games, but that's okay for you to ignore. Sorry I like to go through this season with a more positive long term outlook than some of you.

Wrong. Dino ended all three years with a higher ACC standing than he was projected to have at the beginning of the year. I have no doubt but that he would have done the same last year. And this year, Dino would still have JTT and Ari and we would be a mid-level ACC team in the hunt for a tournament berth. Instead we're a typical Buzz team. And don't bother to get your hopes up past next year. Buzz has a history of running off his own recruits.

I respectfully disagree, tau. I believe a lot of coaches could have done more in the last two years. I'd argue, most coaches, considering this will be the second straight year we will finish in the bottom third of all NCAA teams. ...

^ +1 ^

We're looking at two more years of the youth excuse. Four total.

^ This is just too depressing to contemplate. ^

Success in college basketball is largely dependent on two things: skill (talent) and experience. Relative to the rest of the ACC, I'd classify the Buzz era like this:

Last year:
Skill/Talent: Slightly Below Average
Experience: Far Below Average
Result: Far Below Average

This year:
Skill/Talent: Far Below Average
Experience: Below Average
Result: Far Below Average

Next year (proj):
Skill/Talent: Average
Experience: Far Below Average
Result: Slightly Below Average

There is a glaring deficiency in your evaluation above. It leaves out coaching; which I believe is a major component. There is a reason that some coaches are consistently successful and it goes beyond recruiting.

 

[TexasDeac10]

Recruiting is inextricably intertwined with coaching success. I'd like to hear your argument about how it's not.

If recruiting was as separate from success as you seem to be arguing, then we wouldn't be seeing so many below average stretches for "good" coaches. If Brad Stevens is such a coaching god, then why can't he win his league this year? Why do schools like Texas and Michigan State have good stretches and bad stretches with the same coach?

 

[tau06]

Recruiting is inextricably intertwined with coaching success. I'd like to hear your argument about how it's not.

If recruiting was as separate from success as you seem to be arguing, then we wouldn't be seeing so many below average stretches for "good" coaches. If Brad Stevens is such a coaching god, then why can't he win his league this year? Why do schools like Texas and Michigan State have good stretches and bad stretches with the same coach?

Who is that directed toward Texas? Me?

 

[TexasDeac10]

No, it's directed towards thedeacfan, but I didn't want to quote his long post.

 

[PhDeac]

Recruiting is inextricably intertwined with coaching success. I'd like to hear your argument about how it's not.

If recruiting was as separate from success as you seem to be arguing, then we wouldn't be seeing so many below average stretches for "good" coaches. If Brad Stevens is such a coaching god, then why can't he win his league this year? Why do schools like Texas and Michigan State have good stretches and bad stretches with the same coach?

Your post suggests coaching is a constant instead of a variable.

 

[tau06]

No, it's directed towards thedeacfan, but I didn't want to quote his long post.

10-4. Also, thedeacfan, how exactly do you rationalize that Dino's staying makes JTT be on the team this season? Or did JTT decide he was so crushed by Dino's dismissal that he decided to suddenly start driving under the influence of whatever he was on?

 

[TexasDeac10]

Your post suggests coaching is a constant instead of a variable.

Of course. But, it doesn't go so far as to suggest that "program success" is wholly, or largely, derived from the "coaching" constant. I think thedeacfan miscalculates the influence that recruiting has. He makes the claim that there's a reason some coaches are consistently good, and that it supersedes recruiting, but there are some very good coaches out there (Tom Izzo and Rick Barnes in my original example) who succeed and fail based, basically, on their recruiting classes. And these are guys that recruit at programs that should consistently bring in top classes.

 

[thedeacfan]

Recruiting is inextricably intertwined with coaching success. I'd like to hear your argument about how it's not.

If recruiting was as separate from success as you seem to be arguing, then we wouldn't be seeing so many below average stretches for "good" coaches. If Brad Stevens is such a coaching god, then why can't he win his league this year? Why do schools like Texas and Michigan State have good stretches and bad stretches with the same coach?

I don't disagree with the first sentence above. I simply mean that there is more to coaching than just recruiting. The post to which I was responding left coaching entirely out of the evaluation - considering only player talent and player experience.

10-4. Also, thedeacfan, how exactly do you rationalize that Dino's staying makes JTT be on the team this season? Or did JTT decide he was so crushed by Dino's dismissal that he decided to suddenly start driving under the influence of whatever he was on?

Good coaches have tremendous influence on their players both on and off the court. And many players have NOT responded to Bzz's leadership over the years - both on and off the court. There is no guarantee that the result would have been different under Dino. But the fact is that JTT's drinking incident happened long after he found out that Dino wasn't his coach. It happened after a very long season under Buzz. By then, Buzz had given all the players and the whole Wake fan base a lot of reasons to drink.

 

[PhDeac]

UNC, Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky should consistently bring in top classes. I don't think I'd put Texas or Michigan State in that category.

 

[thedeacfan]

Of course. But, it doesn't go so far as to suggest that "program success" is wholly, or largely, derived from the "coaching" constant. I think thedeacfan miscalculates the influence that recruiting has. He makes the claim that there's a reason some coaches are consistently good, and that it supersedes recruiting, but there are some very good coaches out there (Tom Izzo and Rick Barnes in my original example) who succeed and fail based, basically, on their recruiting classes. And these are guys that recruit at programs that should consistently bring in top classes.

Not so. One of the things I really liked about the Skip/Dino era, is that we were pursuing and landing some top talent.

 

[FreeStateDeac]

Highlight videos are absolutely, utterly worthless in predicting at what level a kid will perform in college. They are fool's gold for amateur scouts.

CMM and Devin should both be ACC-level starters and impact players over their careers, but I base that on the RSCI, not highlight reels.

CMM will be an impact player by default next year, because he will have to start at PG, ready or not.

 

[TBR]

Recruiting is inextricably intertwined with coaching success. I'd like to hear your argument about how it's not.

If recruiting was as separate from success as you seem to be arguing, then we wouldn't be seeing so many below average stretches for "good" coaches. If Brad Stevens is such a coaching god, then why can't he win his league this year? Why do schools like Texas and Michigan State have good stretches and bad stretches with the same coach?

Why do people still not get this?

If Izzo was coaching this team it wouldn't be good, but it would be a whole lot better than it is.

 

[RJKarl]

Not exactly what I was trying to say if that's how it came out.

I think in terms of talent on the teams next season Wake would fall after:

UNC
Duke
FSU
UVA
NCSU
MD

And then Wake falls in the next group with Miami, GT, and probably maybe VT.

And then i'd have Clemson and BC.

So I guess top 6 was being a little generous at first glance but there should be no reason, at least if Bz IS a competent coach, that WF should be in the fight for spots 6-8 or so in the ACC.

And as I type this I get more depressed about WF basketball :rulz:

I'm not sure UVA would be better than us. They lose Scott.

 

[TBR]

8th place would not be acceptable in year 3 and 6th place barely so.

 

[RJKarl]

8th place would not be acceptable.

 

[TBR]

I'm not sure UVA would be better than us. They lose Scott.

As well as Ziggy and Sene.