• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Catholic Church Thread

There is no point in believing the doctrine of predestination unless you hold yourself - although not with ultimate certainty - to be among the elect. But then if you believe that you are among the elect, and you are right with God, then all earthly problems become much easier to face and to deal with. After all, in the ultimate question, the one that matters the most - eternal life as opposed to the nothingness of death - you are right with God. Hence, the power of predestination.
 
Last edited:
The sad part is that you don't see your own belief as a 'fairy tale'.

I recognize my beliefs as faith in the unseen, you seem to think that you can see while you wander in the dark.

As an agnostic who is highly skeptical that the meaning of life is some grand morality guilt trip?

My understanding of the universe is based on scientific knowledge. Physics and Quantum Mechanics.

Your attempt to equate people who are trying to understand really how the universe works with those who devotedly follow the writings of sheep herders from 3,000 years ago is amusing.
 
Thanks for the responses. Another thing that I don't understand about Calivinism is that it seems like way more people are condemned to hell now than before Jesus came. My understanding of the old testament isn't that everybody went to hell, or even that everyone except Jews went to hell (agreed?), but now, only those who are pre-called avoid hell. So God actually took away a person's ability to avoid hell when he sent Jesus to earth? Or do Calivinists think there was predestination before Jesus, too, only with different criteria?
 
As an agnostic who is highly skeptical that the meaning of life is some grand morality guilt trip?

My understanding of the universe is based on scientific knowledge. Physics and Quantum Mechanics.

Your attempt to equate people who are trying to understand really how the universe works with those who devotedly follow the writings of sheep herders from 3,000 years ago is amusing.

amon-re made the sun rise and fall you fool
 
It's somewhat of a misconception that predestination is unique to reformed/Calvinist theology. [St.] Thomas Aquinas' and the subsequent Dominican (Catholic) thought on the matter isn't that different from Calvin. The primary difference is that the former believe the sinners damn themselves and hold "double predestination," i.e. the belief God predestines souls to damnation as heresy, but the final elect are utterly reliant on God's grace for their salvation. Lutherans also hold to a level of predestination based on Luther's Augustinian roots, yet again reject double predestination despite some evidence Luther himself shared identical views with Calvin on the matter.
 
Thanks for the responses. Another thing that I don't understand about Calivinism is that it seems like way more people are condemned to hell now than before Jesus came. My understanding of the old testament isn't that everybody went to hell, or even that everyone except Jews went to hell (agreed?), but now, only those who are pre-called avoid hell. So God actually took away a person's ability to avoid hell when he sent Jesus to earth? Or do Calivinists think there was predestination before Jesus, too, only with different criteria?

This is an impossible subject to discuss on the intranet. Will close my comments by saying the criteria is no different, The Old Testament is about God's chosen people (Jews), the New Testament is about God's chosen people (Christ-followers). When Jesus fulfilled the Law (by living a perfect life) he opened the gates of heaven to all who would believe and trust in Him. Matching that idea of free salvation and pre-destination is an impossible task in and of itself, and it is even more impossible on a message board. I probably shouldn't have even brought it up. As someone mentioned earlier. Calvinism is either the most freeing doctrine or the most enslaving depending on what side of the fence you are looking from. People don't come to Christ because of this idea of pre-destination, in fact I would argue that many are turned away (which is why I should have avoided the conversation). Pre-destination is less of a doctrine as it is a discussion. It is an end game to the realization the God is in total control of everything. If he truly is in control, then he is in control of everything (good and bad).

The part of Calvinism that I think is most appealing (and that somewhat touches on this idea of pre-destination) is that we are not in control, and that it is not up to us to be the most obedient, best acting, perfect group of people. We are loved because we are His, in the same way that I love my children because they are mine...not because of some sort of inherent goodness or the way they act. That love that we have been given as a gift should spur us to a life of obedience and love towards other people. Any other application of Calvinism is proof that they are missing the point. Using Calvinism as a way to beat people up and laugh at them because they are not 'in the club' means you were probably never saved in the first place. Love and compassion should be the response, not pride and finger and pointing.

Peace Professor...this truly is a can of worms. Hopefully I have expressed my opinion on doctrine without missing the application of it all, which should be loving the Lord with all my heart, and loving my neighbor as myself.
 
I didn't think you were attacking at all...I appreciated the discourse. I am just not sure a whole lot of good is done discussing this topic, because I know very few Calvinist who can REALLY apply it well to their lives without error (including myself) and anytime it comes up in a more liberal forum of discussion it goes nowhere for the reasons I listed.
 
This thread won't be complete without the judgmental "prick" showing up. So here I am. Just strolling by and filling the self-righteous gap on the other side of the debate.
 
I am not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief is positively harmful. Reviewing the false claims of religion, I do not wish, as some sentimental materialists affect to wish, that they were true. I do not envy believers their faith. I am relieved to think that the whole story is a sinister fairy tale; life would be miserable if what the faithful affirmed was actually the case.-Hitchens

yep...he had a pretty miserable end didn't he...a paroxysm of doubt and pain.
 
This is an impossible subject to discuss on the intranet. Will close my comments by saying the criteria is no different, 1. The Old Testament is about God's chosen people (Jews), the New Testament is about God's chosen people (Christ-followers).

2. Pre-destination is less of a doctrine as it is a discussion. It is an end game to the realization the God is in total control of everything. If he truly is in control, then he is in control of everything (good and bad).

3. The part of Calvinism that I think is most appealing (and that somewhat touches on this idea of pre-destination) is that we are not in control, and that it is not up to us to be the most obedient, best acting, perfect group of people. We are loved because we are His, in the same way that I love my children because they are mine...not because of some sort of inherent goodness or the way they act.

Peace Professor...this truly is a can of worms. Hopefully I have expressed my opinion on doctrine without missing the application of it all, which should be loving the Lord with all my heart, and 4. loving my neighbor as myself.

1. And everyone else be damned? ROUGH for the n00b civilizations that hadn't traveled to the Middle East yet.

2. Such a ridiculous categorical leap in logic, but I'm not sure you really mean this as I'm reading it.

3. Sounds completely and utterly terrifying, like being trapped in the Matrix and pleased about it.

4. This part I agree with wholeheartedly and unabashedly, without reservations or doubts.
 
demondeacfreak, feel free to respond on this thread instead of via rep. I don't think any of us really know what we're talking about, but I'm open to discuss.
 
If I could pray with my cock, I would be much more religious." Tyrion Lannister

In all seriousness, I think that anyone that is not an agnostic (atheist or theist) is either so ingrained emotionally with their faith that they have never critically analyzed it or are incapable of critically analyzing it OR are so filled with hubris that they misguidedly think science or religion could possibly have all the answers. Is there a God, gods, heaven, hell, the Force, unmoved mover? The answers to these questions are unknown at the moment and may be unknowable. We are just cosmic specks, hardly above nothingness, in the grand scheme of things taking up a microsecond of the universe's time. I don't flatter myself in believing that the human mind can conceive of, let alone explain, all the mysteries of our existence in this vast universe. The very notion of the omnipotent monotheistic God is hilarious. I can understand following religion as a way to ease the ails of an often times difficult life through self improvement via spiritial formation (prayer/meditation, interaction with other, moral codes), but lets get something straight-- your religion deals in faith not facts. It cannot and should not deal in absolute truths like the afterlife, creation, etc. which it has no way to back up other than the omnipotent creator of the entire universe appeared on Earth several thousand years ago to deliver the message of the one true faith to a single particular tribe of nomads who just happened to catch his eye as opposed to all the other peoples on earth let alone intelligent life in a universe made up of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars. The rest are doomed. Sorry. The very idea of an omnipotent god and free will are so at odds that any attempt to reconcile them is just absurd. Now while I do not pretend to have all the answers I am willing to pull aside the veil of mystery and point out absurdity where it can be found.

TL DR: Tyrion Lanister > Religion
 
yep...he had a pretty miserable end didn't he...a paroxysm of doubt and pain.

Actually he died doing what he loved: writing. He gave voice to an experience we all face and did so with painstaking honest. A more fitting end I couldn't imagine. Doubt and pain, ha. You clearly have no idea what Hitchens was all about.
 
Hitchens on death:

Trial of the Will
By Christopher Hitchens


Death has this much to be said for it:
You don’t have to get out of bed for it.
Wherever you happen to be
They bring it to you—free.
—Kingsley Amis

Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool’s gold mouthpiece the hollow horn
Plays wasted words, proves to warn
That he not busy being born is busy dying.
—Bob Dylan, “It’s Alright, Ma (I’m Only Bleeding)”

When it came to it, and old Kingsley suffered from a demoralizing and disorienting fall, he did take to his bed and eventually turned his face to the wall. It wasn’t all reclining and waiting for hospital room service after that—“Kill me, you fucking fool!” he once alarmingly exclaimed to his son Philip—but essentially he waited passively for the end. It duly came, without much fuss and with no charge.

Mr. Robert Zimmerman of Hibbing, Minnesota, has had at least one very close encounter with death, more than one update and revision of his relationship with the Almighty and the Four Last Things, and looks set to go on demonstrating that there are many different ways of proving that one is alive. After all, considering the alternatives …

Before I was diagnosed with esophageal cancer a year and a half ago, I rather jauntily told the readers of my memoirs that when faced with extinction I wanted to be fully conscious and awake, in order to “do” death in the active and not the passive sense. And I do, still, try to nurture that little flame of curiosity and defiance: willing to play out the string to the end and wishing to be spared nothing that properly belongs to a life span. However, one thing that grave illness does is to make you examine familiar principles and seemingly reliable sayings. And there’s one that I find I am not saying with quite the same conviction as I once used to: In particular, I have slightly stopped issuing the announcement that “Whatever doesn’t kill me makes me stronger.”

In fact, I now sometimes wonder why I ever thought it profound. It is usually attributed to Friedrich Nietzsche: Was mich nicht umbringt macht mich stärker. In German it reads and sounds more like poetry, which is why it seems probable to me that Nietzsche borrowed it from Goethe, who was writing a century earlier. But does the rhyme suggest a reason? Perhaps it does, or can, in matters of the emotions. I can remember thinking, of testing moments involving love and hate, that I had, so to speak, come out of them ahead, with some strength accrued from the experience that I couldn’t have acquired any other way. And then once or twice, walking away from a car wreck or a close encounter with mayhem while doing foreign reporting, I experienced a rather fatuous feeling of having been toughened by the encounter. But really, that’s to say no more than “There but for the grace of god go I,” which in turn is to say no more than “The grace of god has happily embraced me and skipped that unfortunate other man.”

In the brute physical world, and the one encompassed by medicine, there are all too many things that could kill you, don’t kill you, and then leave you considerably weaker. Nietzsche was destined to find this out in the hardest possible way, which makes it additionally perplexing that he chose to include the maxim in his 1889 anthology Twilight of the Idols. (In German this is rendered as Götzen-Dämmerung, which contains a clear echo of Wagner’s epic. Possibly his great quarrel with the composer, in which he recoiled with horror from Wagner’s repudiation of the classics in favor of German blood myths and legends, was one of the things that did lend Nietzsche moral strength and fortitude. Certainly the book’s subtitle—“How to Philosophize with a Hammer”—has plenty of bravado.)

In the remainder of his life, however, Nietzsche seems to have caught an early dose of syphilis, very probably during his first-ever sexual encounter, which gave him crushing migraine headaches and attacks of blindness and metastasized into dementia and paralysis. This, while it did not kill him right away, certainly contributed to his death and cannot possibly, in the meanwhile, be said to have made him stronger. In the course of his mental decline, he became convinced that the most important possible cultural feat would be to prove that the plays of Shakespeare had been written by Bacon. This is an unfailing sign of advanced intellectual and mental prostration.

(I take a slight interest in this, because not long ago I was invited onto a Christian radio station in deepest Dixie to debate religion. My interviewer maintained a careful southern courtesy throughout, always allowing me enough time to make my points, and then surprised me by inquiring if I regarded myself as in any sense a Nietzschean. I replied in the negative, saying that I had agreed with some arguments put forward by the great man but didn’t owe any large insight to him and found his contempt for democracy to be somewhat off-putting. H. L. Mencken and others, I tried to add, had also used him to argue some crude social-Darwinist points about the pointlessness of aiding the “unfit.” And his frightful sister, Elisabeth, had exploited his decline to misuse his work as if it had been written in support of the German anti-Semitic nationalist movement. This had perhaps given Nietzsche an undeserved posthumous reputation as a fanatic. The questioner pressed on, asking if I knew that much of Nietzsche’s work had been produced while he was decaying from terminal syphilis. I again responded that I had heard this and knew of no reason to doubt it, though knew of no confirmation either. Just as it became too late, and I heard the strains of music and the words that this would be all we would have time for, my host stole a march and said he wondered how much of my own writing on god had perhaps been influenced by a similar malady! I should have seen this “gotcha” coming, but was left wordless.)

Eventually, and in miserable circumstances in the Italian city of Turin, Nietzsche was overwhelmed at the sight of a horse being cruelly beaten in the street. Rushing to throw his arms around the animal’s neck, he suffered some terrible seizure and seems for the rest of his pain-racked and haunted life to have been under the care of his mother and sister. The date of the Turin trauma is potentially interesting. It occurred in 1889, and we know that in 1887 Nietzsche had been powerfully influenced by his discovery of the works of Dostoyevsky. There appears to be an almost eerie correspondence between the episode in the street and the awful graphic dream experienced by Raskolnikov on the night before he commits the decisive murders in Crime and Punishment. The nightmare, which is quite impossible to forget once you have read it, involves the terribly prolonged beating to death of a horse. Its owner scourges it across the eyes, smashes its spine with a pole, calls on bystanders to help with the flogging … we are spared nothing. If the gruesome coincidence was enough to bring about Nietzsche’s final unhingement, then he must have been tremendously weakened, or made appallingly vulnerable, by his other, unrelated sufferings. These, then, by no means served to make him stronger. The most he could have meant, I now think, is that he made the most of his few intervals from pain and madness to set down his collections of penetrating aphorism and paradox. This may have given him the euphoric impression that he was triumphing, and making use of the Will to Power. Twilight of the Idols was actually published almost simultaneously with the horror in Turin, so the coincidence was pushed as far as it could reasonably go.

Or take an example from an altogether different and more temperate philosopher, nearer to our own time. The late Professor Sidney Hook was a famous materialist and pragmatist, who wrote sophisticated treatises that synthesized the work of John Dewey and Karl Marx. He too was an unrelenting atheist. Toward the end of his long life he became seriously ill and began to reflect on the paradox that—based as he was in the medical mecca of Stanford, California—he was able to avail himself of a historically unprecedented level of care, while at the same time being exposed to a degree of suffering that previous generations might not have been able to afford. Reasoning on this after one especially horrible experience from which he had eventually recovered, he decided that he would after all rather have died:

I lay at the point of death. A congestive heart failure was treated for diagnostic purposes by an angiogram that triggered a stroke. Violent and painful hiccups, uninterrupted for several days and nights, prevented the ingestion of food. My left side and one of my vocal cords became paralyzed. Some form of pleurisy set in, and I felt I was drowning in a sea of slime In one of my lucid intervals during those days of agony, I asked my physician to discontinue all life-supporting services or show me how to do it.

The physician denied this plea, rather loftily assuring Hook that “someday I would appreciate the unwisdom of my request.” But the stoic philosopher, from the vantage point of continued life, still insisted that he wished he had been permitted to expire. He gave three reasons. Another agonizing stroke could hit him, forcing him to suffer it all over again. His family was being put through a hellish experience. Medical resources were being pointlessly expended. In the course of his essay, he used a potent phrase to describe the position of others who suffer like this, referring to them as lying on “mattress graves.”

If being restored to life doesn’t count as something that doesn’t kill you, then what does? And yet there seems no meaningful sense in which it made Sidney Hook “stronger.” Indeed, if anything, it seems to have concentrated his attention on the way in which each debilitation builds on its predecessor and becomes one cumulative misery with only one possible outcome. After all, if it were otherwise, then each attack, each stroke, each vile hiccup, each slime assault, would collectively build one up and strengthen resistance. And this is plainly absurd. So we are left with something quite unusual in the annals of unsentimental approaches to extinction: not the wish to die with dignity but the desire to have died.

Professor Hook eventually left us in 1989, and I am a generation younger than him. I haven’t sailed as close to the bitter end as he had to do. Nor have I yet had to think of having such an arduous conversation with a physician. But I do remember lying there and looking down at my naked torso, which was covered almost from throat to navel by a vivid red radiation rash. This was the product of a month-long bombardment with protons which had burned away all of the cancer in my clavicular and paratracheal nodes, as well as the original tumor in the esophagus. This put me in a rare class of patients who could claim to have received the highly advanced expertise uniquely available at the stellar Zip Code of MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. To say that the rash hurt would be pointless. The struggle is to convey the way that it hurt on the inside. I lay for days on end, trying in vain to postpone the moment when I would have to swallow. Every time I did swallow, a hellish tide of pain would flow up my throat, culminating in what felt like a mule kick in the small of my back. I wondered if things looked as red and inflamed within as they did without. And then I had an unprompted rogue thought: If I had been told about all this in advance, would I have opted for the treatment? There were several moments as I bucked and writhed and gasped and cursed when I seriously doubted it.

It’s probably a merciful thing that pain is impossible to describe from memory. It’s also impossible to warn against. If my proton doctors had tried to tell me up front, they might perhaps have spoken of “grave discomfort” or perhaps of a burning sensation. I only know that nothing at all could have readied or steadied me for this thing that seemed to scorn painkillers and to attack me in my core. I now seem to have run out of radiation options in those spots (35 straight days being considered as much as anyone can take), and while this isn’t in any way good news, it spares me from having to wonder if I would willingly endure the same course of treatment again.

But mercifully, too, I now can’t summon the memory of how I felt during those lacerating days and nights. And I’ve since had some intervals of relative robustness. So as a rational actor, taking the radiation together with the reaction and the recovery, I have to agree that if I had declined the first stage, thus avoiding the second and the third, I would already be dead. And this has no appeal.

However, there is no escaping the fact that I am otherwise enormously weaker than I was then. How long ago it seems that I presented the proton team with champagne and then hopped almost nimbly into a taxi. During my next hospital stay, in Washington D.C., the institution gifted me with a vicious staph pneumonia (and sent me home twice with it) that almost snuffed me out. The annihilating fatigue that came over me in consequence also contained the deadly threat of surrender to the inescapable: I would often find fatalism and resignation washing drearily over me as I failed to battle my general inanition. Only two things rescued me from betraying myself and letting go: a wife who would not hear of me talking in this boring and useless way, and various friends who also spoke freely. Oh, and the regular painkiller. How happily I measured off my day as I saw the injection being readied. It counted as a real event. With some analgesics, if you are lucky, you can actually “feel” the hit as it goes in: a sort of warming tingle with an idiotic bliss to it. To have come to this—like the sad goons who raid pharmacies for OxyContin. But it was an alleviation of boredom, and a guilty pleasure (not many of those in Tumortown), and not least a relief from pain.

In my English family, the role of national poet was taken not by Philip Larkin but by John Betjeman, bard of suburbia and the middle class and a much more mordant presence than the rather teddy-bearish figure he sometimes presented to the world. His poem “Five O’Clock Shadow” shows him at his least furry:

This is the time of day when we in the Men’s Ward
Think “One more surge of the pain and I give up the fight,”
When he who struggles for breath can struggle less strongly:
This is the time of day that is worse than night.

I have come to know that feeling all right: the sensation and conviction that the pain will never go away and that the wait for the next fix is unjustly long. Then a sudden fit of breathlessness, followed by some pointless coughing and then—if it’s a lousy day—by more expectoration than I can handle. Pints of old saliva, occasional mucus, and what the hell do I need heartburn for at this exact moment? It’s not as if I have eaten anything: a tube delivers all my nourishment. All of this, and the childish resentment that goes with it, constitutes a weakening. So does the amazing weight loss that the tube seems unable to combat. I have now lost almost a third of my body mass since the cancer was diagnosed: it may not kill me, but the atrophy of muscle makes it harder to take even the simple exercises without which I’ll become more enfeebled still.

I am typing this having just had an injection to try to reduce the pain in my arms, hands, and fingers. The chief side effect of this pain is numbness in the extremities, filling me with the not irrational fear that I shall lose the ability to write. Without that ability, I feel sure in advance, my “will to live” would be hugely attenuated. I often grandly say that writing is not just my living and my livelihood but my very life, and it’s true. Almost like the threatened loss of my voice, which is currently being alleviated by some temporary injections into my vocal folds, I feel my personality and identity dissolving as I contemplate dead hands and the loss of the transmission belts that connect me to writing and thinking.

These are progressive weaknesses that in a more “normal” life might have taken decades to catch up with me. But, as with the normal life, one finds that every passing day represents more and more relentlessly subtracted from less and less. In other words, the process both etiolates you and moves you nearer toward death. How could it be otherwise? Just as I was beginning to reflect along these lines, I came across an article on the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder. We now know, from dearly bought experience, much more about this malady than we used to. Apparently, one of the symptoms by which it is made known is that a tough veteran will say, seeking to make light of his experience, that “what didn’t kill me made me stronger.” This is one of the manifestations that “denial” takes.

I am attracted to the German etymology of the word “stark,” and its relative used by Nietzsche, stärker, which means “stronger.” In Yiddish, to call someone a shtarker is to credit him with being a militant, a tough guy, a hard worker. So far, I have decided to take whatever my disease can throw at me, and to stay combative even while taking the measure of my inevitable decline. I repeat, this is no more than what a healthy person has to do in slower motion. It is our common fate. In either case, though, one can dispense with facile maxims that don’t live up to their apparent billing.
 
1. And everyone else be damned? ROUGH for the n00b civilizations that hadn't traveled to the Middle East yet.

2. Such a ridiculous categorical leap in logic, but I'm not sure you really mean this as I'm reading it.

3. Sounds completely and utterly terrifying, like being trapped in the Matrix and pleased about it.

4. This part I agree with wholeheartedly and unabashedly, without reservations or doubts.

Or you could look at it as a fish swimming in the ocean rather than trying to walk around on the sand. Thriving in the environment you were meant for. But I understand your reservations. Thanks for responding honestly.
 
Or you could look at it as a fish swimming in the ocean rather than trying to walk around on the sand. Thriving in the environment you were meant for. But I understand your reservations. Thanks for responding honestly.

And you, Wrangor, for responding to me rather than just neg repping and running away as others did to my post (don't care about the rep at all, would just rather people talk; looking at you demondeacfreak).

Though Nietzsche almost certainly had syphilis and was undoubtedly absolutely crazy at the end of his life, he offered up the notion of "saying yes," and in simpler terms, I like to say that I will never close my mind. I hope Christians don't simply allow themselves to stop asking questions, because it can't be a way to live. That was all I really meant by the bolded part. I think there's an important difference between faith and blind, unquestioning faith.
 
Back
Top