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10,000 hours to be a pro golfer?

Wakeforest22890 said:
I think putting is the biggest divide, tours make so many damn putts it's incredible. I can go out and hit a lot of greens, but I just don't knock it close enough or make enough medium ranged putts for birdies to shoot in the 60's.

I also choke on a lot of 5 footers
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I am a six handicap and a solid putter- putting for pars. I am not nearly as good putting for birdies.
 
ABCDeac said:
I've played with/against Simson several times - he is a "member" at RCC and former club champion, although he doesn't play there often. He would be a very good putter even amongst tour players. Incredible from 20 feet and in.
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Paul Simson plays out of my old home course, North Ridge Country Club. Great guy, and one of the best amateur golfers in the history of NC. His son went to wake and graduated in 2004 I believe.
 
ZDeac said:
Just spent a half hour reading this. It's clearly going to ruin my plans today.
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That's an interesting list. I've tried myself over the years to describe the levels of good to non-golfers. I'd guess I might have made level one on the list at one time but nothing more.

I'm working with the son of a long-time friend who has gotten to mini-tour philanthropist, and despite everything, which includes his aversion to change, I'll be surprised if he gets beyond that level.

Having caddied in some GGOs aka Wyndham, what impresses me most about the tour players is their ability from 100 yards in, the number of times they convert on approaches from that range. Above and beyond anything, what amazes me is their skill from greenside bunkers. At best, I never converted more than 20% of those, and that doesn't count the doubles or worse.

I've studied putting technique for years now, and their putting prowess doesn't overwhelm me anymore. Just wish I'd known then what I know now.
 
Liquid Karma said:
I've been paired with him in qualifiers a couple times, and also got paired up with him in the NC Fourball 2 years ago (Paul Simson was his partner).

He had a nice run about 6 or 7 years ago where you could make a good case that he was the best non-collegiate amateur golfer in the Carolinas.

Super nice guy with loads of game. Only thing I saw that might have been holding him back is that only hit it average distance. Both he and Simson were absolutely lethal around the greens.
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scooter84 said:
This is really the thing that has created a huge gap between great amateurs and pros - the Tour has become a bomber's paradise. If you can't hit it 325 in the fairway when you need to, then it is very difficult to compete these days.

I have played the game all my life and 10-15 years ago I was hitting my tee shots basically the same distance as the touring pros (obviously I didn't hit good ones as often and did not hit them as straight). Today I hit my tee shots further than I did then (technology) but now my good drives are 25-50 yards behind the Tour guys.

Oh, and putting is the other great divide - it is crazy how many putts those guys make.
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I'm sure you mean average distance for very, very good golfer.
 
WhatUTalkinBout Willis said:
I'm sure you mean average distance for very, very good golfer.
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Correct. He's longer that most golfers, but average relative to his peers. I had him by about 20-25 yards per hole, but he outclassed me almost everywhere else.
 
DCDeac said:
"Scratch" is an incredibly overrated term. I'd rather know how many under par tournament rounds they've shot. It's usually zero. I have never once seen such a person shoot something under 80 from the tips at a quality away course playing tournament rules, and I've played in a lot of tournaments. The last guy I played with called himself a "strong 2" and then shot 91.

The vast majority of guys who claim to be a scratch or a 4 or whatever are playing to vanity handicaps. Not to mention most people don't understand that if a guy is a 2 that doesn't mean he's expected to shoot 74 whenever he plays.

Can this guy find some crappy muni track to pitch-and-putt it around to get his cap into single digits or call himself "scratch?" Sure. But so could about 90% of any legit single digit index. The goal is to become a professional golfer. He's not going to come close, and I'll be shocked if he doesn't give up well before 10,000 hours.
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Do none of these people you are talking about play for money? Holy crap!

The club I belong to has the OPPOSITE problem. Everyone claims they are a 17. You have go CSI/Erin Brockovich on most of these guys to get them to admit to being a single digit, much less a scratch. Everybody sandbags...
 
From my experience, golfers tend to sandbag down to about a 5 or 6 handicap. Once they get close to scratch, a reverse-sandbag phenomenon kicks in - pride gets in the way, I think. This is particularly true of the former collegiate golfer who never makes a tour/gets a real job. They hold on to a 0-2 handicap way too long. They are easy money because they cannot handle not being as good as they once were (when they were grinding, in hopes of getting to the "next level.")

I am currently a 2. I was a 0 last summer. Went to a 4 over the winter because I played a bunch of golf in crappy weather. Similar cycle most years. I post every score, but sometimes my scores are deflated due to "double-bogey max" rule for posting. I have only shot about 6 rounds under par in legit tournament conditions, and have never shot lower than 68 in a tournament.
 
Coach O said:
Do none of these people you are talking about play for money? Holy crap!

The club I belong to has the OPPOSITE problem. Everyone claims they are a 17. You have go CSI/Erin Brockovich on most of these guys to get them to admit to being a single digit, much less a scratch. Everybody sandbags...
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This.

I don't understand how a vanity handicap helps you at all... unless you like losing money.

Also, Tom Coyne's book Paper Tiger describes this commitment well. Coyne pretty much went through this process and got on some mini-tours for a bit. I believe another poster had a link to a section from his book. It's a fun, quick read.
 
ABCDeac said:
From my experience, golfers tend to sandbag down to about a 5 or 6 handicap. Once they get close to scratch, a reverse-sandbag phenomenon kicks in - pride gets in the way, I think. This is particularly true of the former collegiate golfer who never makes a tour/gets a real job. They hold on to a 0-2 handicap way too long. They are easy money because they cannot handle not being as good as they once were (when they were grinding, in hopes of getting to the "next level.")

I am currently a 2. I was a 0 last summer. Went to a 4 over the winter because I played a bunch of golf in crappy weather. Similar cycle most years. I post every score, but sometimes my scores are deflated due to "double-bogey max" rule for posting. I have only shot about 6 rounds under par in legit tournament conditions, and have never shot lower than 68 in a tournament.
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I could've written this word for word. Welcome to the club.

ETA: Though I never got to 0, and am not currently a 4. Still for years that was my pattern with the 2-4 seasonal handicap. Also, the last sentence is exactly the same for me. Felt like I was having a flashback when I read it.
 
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ABCDeac said:
From my experience, golfers tend to sandbag down to about a 5 or 6 handicap. Once they get close to scratch, a reverse-sandbag phenomenon kicks in - pride gets in the way, I think. This is particularly true of the former collegiate golfer who never makes a tour/gets a real job. They hold on to a 0-2 handicap way too long. They are easy money because they cannot handle not being as good as they once were (when they were grinding, in hopes of getting to the "next level.")

I am currently a 2. I was a 0 last summer. Went to a 4 over the winter because I played a bunch of golf in crappy weather. Similar cycle most years. I post every score, but sometimes my scores are deflated due to "double-bogey max" rule for posting. I have only shot about 6 rounds under par in legit tournament conditions, and have never shot lower than 68 in a tournament.
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When you say you "post" your score, do you use an online site or your own book? Anyone have good recommendations for online sites?
 
PaddyWF said:
This.

I don't understand how a vanity handicap helps you at all... unless you like losing money.

Also, Tom Coyne's book Paper Tiger describes this commitment well. Coyne pretty much went through this process and got on some mini-tours for a bit. I believe another poster had a link to a section from his book. It's a fun, quick read.
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Thanks for the tip on the book.
 
AnonymousDeac said:
When you say you "post" your score, do you use an online site or your own book? Anyone have good recommendations for online sites?
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He's probably a member of a club or golf association, although I'm guessing there are options available online. The hard part may be finding something online that is USGA/GHIN.

I've been able to keep mine throughout college at my parent's club (and I can post scores online through eGolfer). I think they were supposed to drop me from the system when I graduated, but they didn't, and I'm not going to tell them otherwise. Been between a 16-17 index throughout college, and that's not sandbagging. Just pretty consistent, but I'd like to get better.

I have an uncle who, if you looked at ever score he's posted in the last 5 years, every single one of them would be between 90 and 93, but if you played with him he'd probably shoot 85-87. He does it to make his club's "Ryder Cup" team for a tournament with another local club. Typical sandbagging I guess, but that's the way it goes.
 
I don't know why it's somewhat euphemistically referred to as sandbagging. What it actually is is cheating, pure and simple.

There were two guys at my club years ago who were listed as 13 and 6. In reality, they were more like 8 and 2. Naturally, they won almost every member-member type of event played. It got so bad that the rest of us finally went to the pro and said that if these two guys were entered in an event, no one else was going to sign up.

They both left the club because they couldn't get a game. No one would play with them, individually or together.
 
A buddy of mine doesn't play golf at all but his dad does, and on a number of occasions I've had the opportunity to play with him but he always ducks the chance. We'd talk golf, and we even figured out we'd played in a couple of the same tournaments, but it was weird that he'd never play with me.

My friend tells me that he randomly got a call to verify his handicap. He was like, uhhh, I think you called the wrong number, I don't play golf. Then apparently his dad called him and was all upset that he didn't just say "ok" and hang up.

Turns out his real handicap is like a 6 to impress all his buddies at the club, but he uses his son's handicap for every tournament he plays in. And it's a 16. Plus some of the stuff he plays in are charity events with tons of money and awesome prizes up for grabs. Completely despicable.
 
DCDeac said:
A buddy of mine doesn't play golf at all but his dad does, and on a number of occasions I've had the opportunity to play with him but he always ducks the chance. We'd talk golf, and we even figured out we'd played in a couple of the same tournaments, but it was weird that he'd never play with me.

My friend tells me that he randomly got a call to verify his handicap. He was like, uhhh, I think you called the wrong number, I don't play golf. Then apparently his dad called him and was all upset that he didn't just say "ok" and hang up.

Turns out his real handicap is like a 6 to impress all his buddies at the club, but he uses his son's handicap for every tournament he plays in. And it's a 16. Plus some of the stuff he plays in are charity events with tons of money and awesome prizes up for grabs. Completely despicable.
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DCDeac, sounds like a dude I played with in a member-guest pairing. This guy was a 13 handicap, shot 32 on the front 9 and ended up shooting 68 gross- 55 net on his own ball. A 13 handicap. On the 3rd hole, he hits it behind a greenside bunker and has an uphill shot of 15 yards or so over the bunker to an elevated green to a tight pin off a really tight almost hardpan lie. Dude opens the face up and hits a flop shot to kick in range and thinks nothing of it. That's when I knew.

I think I was a plus 2 at that point and a 13 handicap beat me staright up. No way. The club expsoed the guy and he left the ceremony early in shame.
 
I always get frustrated playing in tournaments (particularly when you're just your own 4some with no one watching) because I'm 99% sure people are cheating. Not 99% of people, but in 99% of casual tournaments at least one person is. Scramble, best ball, gross/net, doesn't matter. I totally made up that stat, but it certainly feels like it.

I'm playing in a big charity tournament in Forth Worth next week. I got invited kind of last minute so I'm just along for the ride. Format is 2 best bal (net). I'm sure there will be some stupidly low scores put up. I'm not so sure they will be legitimate. All we had to do was tell the organizers our index, so people could have made anything up.
 
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