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10,000 hours to be a pro golfer?

Coach O said:
I read Gladwell's book, and my recollection is that it isn't merely the 10,000 hours that makes one an "outlier." It is the innate ability COUPLED with the 10,000 hours that creates the POSSIBILITY of being an outlier.

Example: there are actually lots of people Bill Gates age who had his level of intelligence and interest in computer science. But at that time in history, very, very few had access to computer time. He did, and as such, became an outlier.

Taking a random person and giving them 10,000 hours of something does not create an outlier. It creates a person who has dedicated 10,000 hours to something.
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You are correct in your analysis of Gladwell's book and argument. However, the 10,000 hours theory is not Gladwell's, but rather widely believed because of results from observation studies. Gladwell merely combines that with the rest of his arguments for determining how outliers become outliers.

I believe this would be the first 'controlled' study and thus the significance.
 
ibleedgoldandblack said:
Depends on what you mean by "expert" I could practice football for 10000 solid hours and not make the NFL.

I could study football for 10000 solid hours and make myself into an expert on schemes and strategy.

Same with the golf guy. After 10000 hours of practice will he be able to make the PGA tour? Depends partly on his innate talent. After 10000 hours of practice and study, however, I feel like he would have a really good shot at being an expert in swing mechanics, how to direct the trajectory of a golf shot, how to read a green, etc.
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Good point. I guess there will have to be a discussion on what defines success and expert. I think that expert is very subjective and varies by field. In golf, I think that being a golf pro could qualify one as an expert, but that is obviously a far cry from being on the PGA tour.

AnonymousDeac said:
You are correct in your analysis of Gladwell's book and argument. However, the 10,000 hours theory is not Gladwell's, but rather widely believed because of results from observation studies. Gladwell merely combines that with the rest of his arguments for determining how outliers become outliers.

I believe this would be the first 'controlled' study and thus the significance.
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Yep, thanks for the clarification Coach O, I read his book several years ago.
 
Some headline writer needs to learn the different between golf pro and pro golfer.
 
This is a ridiculous hypothesis and it seriously disrespects and underestimates what it takes to play golf for money. How many college golfers out there spend this kind of time on their game? A lot! How many of them make it on tour? Not many!

And, those guys (and gals) are already great golfers - with talent and tons of practice already invested in order to just be a college golfer.

I know lots of scratch golfers who understand the pro game well enough to know that there is a huge gap between them and the average touring pro - Huge!
 
scooter84 said:
This is a ridiculous hypothesis and it seriously disrespects and underestimates what it takes to play golf for money. How many college golfers out there spend this kind of time on their game? A lot! How many of them make it on tour? Not many!

And, those guys (and gals) are already great golfers - with talent and tons of practice already invested in order to just be a college golfer.

I know lots of scratch golfers who understand the pro game well enough to know that there is a huge gap between them and the average touring pro - Huge!
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golfers really are catching feelings about this
 
I really would like to see him try it with darts.

How much money can you make as a professional dart thrower?
 
Most people seem pretty confident he won't make a tour. What do you think his odds are of becoming a scratch golfer? Single-digit handicapper?

I think he'll definitely be single digit and maybe scratch. The tour is still another level, though.

Also, 10,000 hours is a lot of hours. I'd be surprised if most college golfers had truly put that much time into the game (playing/practicing - not travel and stuff). That's 2,000-2,500 rounds if all you did was play, although I know that practice a lot. I guess some probably have in their lifetimes, but not in college.
 
ZDeac said:
Also, 10,000 hours is a lot of hours. I'd be surprised if most college golfers had truly put that much time into the game (playing/practicing - not travel and stuff). That's 2,000-2,500 rounds if all you did was play, although I know that practice a lot. I guess some probably have in their lifetimes, but not in college.
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5 years at a 40hr/week, 50 week/year job. LOOOOONG time.

Of course this guy is doing a 36hr week so he'll be taking even longer.
 
ZDeac said:
Most people seem pretty confident he won't make a tour. What do you think his odds are of becoming a scratch golfer? Single-digit handicapper?

I think he'll definitely be single digit and maybe scratch. The tour is still another level, though.

Also, 10,000 hours is a lot of hours. I'd be surprised if most college golfers had truly put that much time into the game (playing/practicing - not travel and stuff). That's 2,000-2,500 rounds if all you did was play, although I know that practice a lot. I guess some probably have in their lifetimes, but not in college.
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Scratch is a relative term - most any "scratch golfer" who comes to my course cannot break 80. I know that it is supposedly not relative due to rating/slope, but those simply are not accurate enough to answer your question. I bet this guy will get to the point where he can regularly shoot around 80 on a 6600-yard type course, assuming he puts in the time he is contemplating. Maybe he gets to where he can shoot par occasionally on an average-difficulty course, but I doubt it. I think it is more likely that he quits altogether within the next two years.

Interesting exercise though.
 
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I love the game, am far from a scratch golfer but play every chance I get. I have done so for the past 12 years. All i can say is...best of luck pal, toughest sport on the face of the planet!
 
Three time major winner Larry Nelson is the closest example to the results of concentrated effort over a similar stretch of time. Nelson had never played golf as a kid and took up the game at age 21 after a tour in Nam.

At the urging of a golf pro he carefully studied Hogan's Five Lessons and took lessons from the pro before playing his first round. The path diverges here as he broke 70 within nine months of starting. Within 6 years he was able to get through Q school and join the tour.

The 10,000 hour thing is consistent with the idea that from the 1920s on back, before the widespread existence of colleges and training schools, most people learned their trades under the guidance of someone already skilled in the field. After a period of 2-4 years while the "trainee" was learning the trade he was considered an apprentice. So 8000 hours, 10,000 hours, not much difference. Pretty much, if you haven't mastered a trade within four years, you probably won't.
 
ABCDeac said:
Scratch is a relative term - most any "scratch golfer" who comes to my course cannot break 80.
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What kind of course do you play at where most par golfers can't break 80?
 
RacerDeac said:
What kind of course do you play at where most par golfers can't break 80?
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As kids, we were taught that a "scratch" golfer was anyone with a 0 handicap or one in the minus numbers. I'm thinking that the word "scratch" has taken on the general meaning of someone who regularly breaks 80. At one point, I was a 2 handicap, now not much better than a 9. Still, my friends will introduce me a scratch golfer.

Drives me crazy, especially after a first tee snap hook into the next fairway.
 
deacfreke2 said:
As kids, we were taught that a "scratch" golfer was anyone with a 0 handicap or one in the minus numbers. I'm thinking that the word "scratch" has taken on the general meaning of someone who regularly breaks 80. At one point, I was a 2 handicap, now not much better than a 9. Still, my friends will introduce me a scratch golfer.

Drives me crazy, especially after a first tee snap hook into the next fairway.
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I agree with you definition of "scratch" (although I could understand someone bragging about a friend who almost was by exaggerating a bit).

"He's basically a scratch golfer" could mean a lot of things.
 
RacerDeac said:
What kind of course do you play at where most par golfers can't break 80?
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"Scratch" is an incredibly overrated term. I'd rather know how many under par tournament rounds they've shot. It's usually zero. I have never once seen such a person shoot something under 80 from the tips at a quality away course playing tournament rules, and I've played in a lot of tournaments. The last guy I played with called himself a "strong 2" and then shot 91.

The vast majority of guys who claim to be a scratch or a 4 or whatever are playing to vanity handicaps. Not to mention most people don't understand that if a guy is a 2 that doesn't mean he's expected to shoot 74 whenever he plays.

Can this guy find some crappy muni track to pitch-and-putt it around to get his cap into single digits or call himself "scratch?" Sure. But so could about 90% of any legit single digit index. The goal is to become a professional golfer. He's not going to come close, and I'll be shocked if he doesn't give up well before 10,000 hours.
 
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