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'17 Specials & '18 Midterms Thread

no it isn't

it's just bad math

no, it's actually a really dumb way to evaluate options and make decisions. in no other aspect of your life would you expect a purely idealistic decision to be made as the best choice except as an exercise in serotonin stimulation
 
no, it's actually a really dumb way to evaluate options and make decisions. in no other aspect of your life would you expect a purely idealistic decision to be made as the best choice except as an exercise in serotonin stimulation

I'm having a hard time understanding how this does not equate to "political dissent is not allowed."
 
I'm having a hard time understanding how this does not equate to "political dissent is not allowed."

i didn't say not allowed, just pointless when it comes to using your vote on a third party, especially if it's a "protest"

if we had a ranked-vote system, i think it would make more sense to vote your conscience which is why we should follow Maine's lead ASAP.
 
no, it's actually a really dumb way to evaluate options and make decisions. in no other aspect of your life would you expect a purely idealistic decision to be made as the best choice except as an exercise in serotonin stimulation

i'm pushing back on the idea that a vote for a third-party is the mathematical equivalent of a vote for a mainstream party in a two-horse race
 
Do you have a problem with poor and working class people, who are maybe organizing low-income tenants, or serving food to homeless and vulnerable populations, or participating in many other direct action activities, voting third party, if they believe their everyday organizing is more effective improving people's day to day lives than voting for a capitalist party?

I think we are still conflating two arguments? "Is socialism better than liberalism?" I think we can argue that all day and its what I'd rather argue. "Do people have the self-determination and agency to not vote for the democratic party without you labeling it a "exercise in seratonin stimulation?" To argue that they don't have that agency is offensive to me and my friends.

I'm going to tell people on the Missouri side to vote for green party if they are anti-capitalist? Why, because if they are anti-capitalist, it makes no fucking sense for them to vote for Claire McCaskill.
 
Do you have a problem with poor and working class people, who are maybe organizing low-income tenants, or serving food to homeless and vulnerable populations, or participating in many other direct action activities, voting third party, if they believe their everyday organizing is more effective improving people's day to day lives than voting for a capitalist party?

I think we are still conflating two arguments? "Is socialism better than liberalism?" I think we can argue that all day and its what I'd rather argue. "Do people have the self-determination and agency to not vote for the democratic party without you labeling it a "exercise in seratonin stimulation?" To argue that they don't have that agency is offensive to me and my friends.

I'm going to tell people on the Missouri side to vote for green party if they are anti-capitalist? Why, because if they are anti-capitalist, it makes no fucking sense for them to vote for Claire McCaskill.

you're taking my comments as a criticism of certain beliefs or values, which is not the case, except that voting purely on conscience is an exercise in futility in a system where everything boils down to A or B.
 
in the vacuum of a specific election, perhaps, but not across the political landscape

sure, if we include all votes for all positions across this vast planet, you might have an argument.

we're talking mostly about mid-high level government positions in the United States, where campaign resource requirements are generally high and attention and education of the electorate are generally low
 
do you not think that the third party supporters have helped with the leftward shift within the Democratic Party, giving rise to the Bernies and Ocasio-Cortezes of the world?

your position seems to be coming up against "why try?"
 
do you not think that the third party supporters have helped with the leftward shift within the Democratic Party, giving rise to the Bernies and Ocasio-Cortezes of the world?

your position seems to be coming up against "why try?"

no i don't think it helps at all, if they want to shift the D party, they should shift the D party - like they're doing right now by RUNNING AS DEMOCRATS
 
again, if we make a plausible change like to using ranked-choice, i think things would get a lot more interesting and viable

*shrug*
 
Do you have a problem with poor and working class people, who are maybe organizing low-income tenants, or serving food to homeless and vulnerable populations, or participating in many other direct action activities, voting third party, if they believe their everyday organizing is more effective improving people's day to day lives than voting for a capitalist party?

I'd like to try and understand why they think voting third party would be more effective in improving people's day to day lives than voting for a "capitalist" party. Organizing, serving vulnerable populations, these are wonderful things, of course, and absolutely they will improve lives. But how does the third part vote itself help? In my mind, it seems more likely to hurt, especially in the short run in our current system.

It's one thing if it were an attempt to hold the democratic party hostage. In other words, withholding their vote until some certain policy priorities are changed. If the block was large enough, that would force the dems to decide if making those (presumably progressive) changes would gain enough votes to make up for the voters they might lose for enacting them. I don't necessarily agree with that tactic, but I can see the logic behind it. But that seems to be not what you are arguing for at all. You aren't trying to change the dems, you are trying to create something new entirely. And I just don't see how throwing away votes now, which again, to me seems more likely to hurt vulnerable populations in the short run, is helpful to that end.
 
Does the same apply on the other side? Should all libertarians or constitution party folks run as republicans, even though they have major disagreements? Again, I think it has to be an election-by-election decision how best to advance the positions you support.
 
I'd like to try and understand why they think voting third party would be more effective in improving people's day to day lives than voting for a "capitalist" party. Organizing, serving vulnerable populations, these are wonderful things, of course, and absolutely they will improve lives. But how does the third part vote itself help? In my mind, it seems more likely to hurt, especially in the short run in our current system.

It's one thing if it were an attempt to hold the democratic party hostage. In other words, withholding their vote until some certain policy priorities are changed. If the block was large enough, that would force the dems to decide if making those (presumably progressive) changes would gain enough votes to make up for the voters they might lose for enacting them. I don't necessarily agree with that tactic, but I can see the logic behind it. But that seems to be not what you are arguing for at all. You aren't trying to change the dems, you are trying to create something new entirely. And I just don't see how throwing away votes now, which again, to me seems more likely to hurt vulnerable populations in the short run, is helpful to that end.

Not sure it's an either/or proposition. There is work going on to work within the party and to create an alternative. The smaller the electorate, the easier it is to do the latter. I think a lot of the municipal-level work being done to run non-mainstream party candidates can work toward a national strategy of moving away from a two-party system. Lots of work and a long timeline, but a goal to work toward, nonetheless.
 
So I still had a fivethirtyeight link open on my computer from Monday open on my computer, reading back after seeing how surprised most people that watch this stuff for a living were by the primary results in Washington:

Pay special attention to the margins in the 3rd District and the 5th District. In the latter, Republican Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers and Democrat Lisa Brown are almost assured to advance to the general election, but analysts disagree on whether McMorris Rodgers — the No. 4 Republican in the House — is in any serious danger of losing this R+15 seat. Same with the 3rd District (R+9), which is either “Safe Republican” or “Likely Republican” depending on whom you ask.

Number 4 Republican in the House, R +15 seat, and she got 48% of the vote, compared to 47% for her Dem opponent.

And, with the final congressional special election complete, a summary:

kq1u4hznxbsjg9bg.png


Link
 
Does the same apply on the other side? Should all libertarians or constitution party folks run as republicans, even though they have major disagreements? Again, I think it has to be an election-by-election decision how best to advance the positions you support.

Yeah. That's what they've done. It's worked.

Kobach's lead in Kansas race cut after mistake

Kobach's lead in the Republican primary for governor in Kansas is down to 91.


"The final, unofficial results posted on the secretary of state's website show Kobach winning Thomas County in northwest Kansas, with 466 votes to Colyer's 422. But the tally posted by the Thomas County clerk's office shows Colyer with 522 votes, or 100 votes more for him, a number the clerk confirmed to The Associated Press on Thursday."

Weird mistake. Who is the secretary of state in Kansas who could make such a mistake?


header_primary.jpg


Ooooooooooh
 
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