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'17 Specials & '18 Midterms Thread

The question is whether a party of capital can be co-opted to destroy capital's choke-hold on life and/or to what extent it can be part of that struggle. I don't have a particular beef with people who use that party's ballot line but I also don't have a good response to people who answer the question with a negative.

Politics in a capitalist economy will be dependent on money. That’s the current situation. Can’t change that without having money first. So you need Steyer and Soros to donate the big $$$ until you can change policy and courts enough to make the big $$$ unnecessary.
 
Please, for the love of god, stop saying "this isn't enough for you" and insisting that any disagreement means I'm demanding 100% agreement. I am explicitly not demanding 100% agreement. I voted for HRC and I voted in the dem primary in KS.

People are allowed to express disagreement without all the personal attacks. I'm trying to ask you nicely to treat me with a little more respect. I know I haven't always given you that respect, but your incessant claims that I am just like Trump are offensive.

Your "a vote for third party helps republicans" line may be true in some elections and not in others. In the KS governor race, I think Orman votes most likely hurt republicans. I am not disagreeing with you on the specific point, because it is difficult to measure and prove.

I am, i think, making a separate argument. That is that no party is owed someone's vote. They have to earn it. If McCaskill loses to Hawley, it won't be mine or the Green Party's fault. It will be McCaskill's fault. She is running just a terrible centrist campaign in a state that just overwhelming dominated big money interest with the rejection of MO's right to work law. She has a very rocky relationship with black voters in KC, and recently black leaders in KC refused to write a letter in support of her. She is one of the richest people in Congress. No one I know here feels like she gives a fuck about their material conditions. A "blue no matter what" position will never hold anyone accountable.

The Green Party will likely seek our local chapter's endorsement in the MO senate race. I don't know what will happen, but our chapter will democratically vote whether to endorse.

You keep saying that this vote or that vote will reverse everything accomplished. Before Trump even came along, we were seeing the reversal of past gains. I don't disagree that it may set us back. I'm arguing that liberalism is wholly incapable of fighting for, winning, and sustaining the kind of change I want to see in the world. That has never been more apparent than in the failures of the Obama administration.

Regarding the rest of your post, summarizing your long held beliefs: How do you think the Democratic party has done fighting for those same values?

If you care about labor, taking money out of politics, and internationalism, join a movement that shares those values.

Losing McCaskill means losing a reliable vote for good things. Taking any votes away from her is a vote for the Republican. You can try to justify it all you like, but the impact is the same. There are other people that would better than she. However, that option has no chance of winning.

If you vote Green, you are voting red. It's that simple.

Had people in PA, MI and WI not thrown away their votes, Hillary (not close to being my first choice) would have been POTUS. The Supreme Court would have stopped most of the erosion we are about to see.

If you and your party chooses to vote Green or anything other than McCaskill, you have no place to bitch for the next six years of Hawley's RW votes that will be massively worse than McCaskill's. Those are the only two who can win.

From the time you were in elementary school, Obama was head and shoulders the best POTUS. As Teddy Kennedy used to say, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good". A ton of good happened during Obama's administration. To say it didn't is ridiculous.

He wasn't close to being perfect, but no POTUS ever has been.

As to joining your movement, I'm not interested in being part of something that hands the world to Trumpees and worse. That would be the results of being all or nothing. Get in the game. Make the MO Democratic Party OWE you something. Get out enough votes to keep a Republican from representing MO in the Senate. Show the powers that you have the votes.

There are few things you can guarantee in politics, but I can guarantee you that if you take thousand or tens of thousands of votes from a party that loses a close election, they won't forgive or work with you.

You can dream all you like, but in the real world supporting anyone but the flawed McCaskill will greatly weaken your movement for many years to come. You can be pure or you can be effective.

In fact the best way for you to influence the DNC is to get hundreds of thousands to millions of votes to the polls this November. Take pictures, tweet, use all social media to show what you've done. If you get everyone out to vote and help switch the Senate, you will accelerate the power of your movement by several years and be able to cash in some chits very soon.

But if you stay home or vote for Greens or others, kiss it good-bye. You can't win the game from the bench.
 
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If Claire McCa$kill wants to win she better earn the votes, its nobodies fuckin job to vote for her.
 
If Claire McCa$kill wants to win she better earn the votes, its nobodies fuckin job to vote for her.

This is so dumb. This is why we have Trump. This is why we have a Republican majority in Congress. This is why we have asshole justices.
 
If Claire McCa$kill wants to win she better earn the votes, its nobodies fuckin job to vote for her.

If Claire McCaskill loses and the Dems lose the Senate by her vote, then those who rode their high horses to the polls are to blame. Sometimes you have to take one for the team and bank an IOU for later.
 
This is so dumb. This is why we have Trump. This is why we have a Republican majority in Congress. This is why we have asshole justices.
You might not like it, but its the truth. You cant and aren't going to guilt people into voting for an unpopular candidate.
 
You might not like it, but its the truth. You cant and aren't going to guilt people into voting for an unpopular candidate.

I realize that. And it’s the big problem with the left. It’s how we let the minority political opinion rule. They vote. We don’t.
 
RJ, you didn’t argue a single substantive point of my post. PH, it is disappointing that you think that. We don’t have Trump because of third party voters. We have Trump because the Democratic Party failed to provide the country an attractive enough alternative. And because centrism is a disease. It’s just fucking outright insanity for RJ to think he could say the same thing to poor or marginalized people in MO that don’t vote because no one is representing them.
 
I realize that. And it’s the big problem with the left. It’s how we let the minority political opinion rule. They vote. We don’t.
I would also like for more people to vote - which is why I believe the Democratic party and candidates are responsible for making the changes to increase turnout.
 
You guys literally think that a tiny ass DSA chapter in KCMO, with like 20-30 members voting to endorse a Green Party candidate, is more culpable for a loss than a massive political machine with vast amounts of money and influence.
 
I would also like for more people to vote - which is why I believe the Democratic party and candidates are responsible for making the changes to increase turnout.

And if you guys got people to turn out, the DNC would owe you. Stop thinking so small, so parochially and without any vision.
 
And if you guys got people to turn out, the DNC would owe you. Stop thinking so small, so parochially and without any vision.
If all that nonsense was a reference to the DSA, they actually do a lot of work in voter outreach.
 
RJ, you didn’t argue a single substantive point of my post. PH, it is disappointing that you think that. We don’t have Trump because of third party voters. We have Trump because the Democratic Party failed to provide the country an attractive enough alternative. And because centrism is a disease. It’s just fucking outright insanity for RJ to think he could say the same thing to poor or marginalized people in MO that don’t vote because no one is representing them.

Wrong. As usual, you didn't like my answers. So, you ignored them.

The basically reality is sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

You state this:

"People are allowed to express disagreement without all the personal attacks. I'm trying to ask you nicely to treat me with a little more respect. I know I haven't always given you that respect, but your incessant claims that I am just like Trump are offensive."

Then, very shortly thereafter post- "It’s just fucking outright insanity for RJ to think he could say the same thing to poor or marginalized people in MO that don’t vote because no one is representing them."

You bitch about about "personal attacks" and want respect and say I am fucking outright insane. Talk about abject hypocrisy.

Maybe if those people in MO voted they would have one of the reddest states in the country.
 
If you want to specifically focus on voting, how about critically examining democrats contribution to mass incarceration and the disenfranchisement that occurred as a result? The national prison strike ends today and one of the 10 demands was full enfranchisement of incarcerated people and those with felony convictions. I heard more about the prison strike from Teen Vogue than I did from any Democrats. So, can we talk about that?
 
If all that nonsense was a reference to the DSA, they actually do a lot of work in voter outreach.

But you are OK with them splitting their votes. Show up across a close state with thousands of votes and deliver that state. Then, your platform has an infinitely better chance of being implemented.

And don't expect everything to happen at once. It can't and it won't.
 
No. People actually dont have to vote at all. If you dont like that, tough shit. Change the law.

If you don't vote and encourage not to care if they don't exactly what they want, you can expect that your beautiful baby will live under a fascist Supreme Court for the next 40-50 years.
 
No. People actually dont have to vote at all. If you dont like that, tough shit. Change the law.

Why do you think we are hearing about DSA now? Because they are bothering to run for office as Democrats and vote for Democrats. All those years on the sidelines did nothing.
 
Why do you think we are hearing about DSA now? Because they are bothering to run for office as Democrats and vote for Democrats. All those years on the sidelines did nothing.
What the fuck are you talking about? The DSA has 50k members nationwide and they are nearly all young and politically active. It seems you and RJ are both ignorant about the demographics of voting participation.
 
You have talked about how more people are involved than ever before. Are you really going to act like Bernie and AOC haven’t helped make that happen?
 
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