'17 Specials & '18 Midterms Thread

[myDeaconmyhand]

You have talked about how more people are involved than ever before. Are you really going to act like Bernie and AOC haven’t helped make that happen?

What does that have to do with Claire McCaskill being unpopular, and the people of Missouri not wanting to vote for her? That has nothing to do with DSA.

 

[MHBDemon]

Wrong. As usual, you didn't like my answers. So, you ignored them.

The basically reality is sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

You state this:

"People are allowed to express disagreement without all the personal attacks. I'm trying to ask you nicely to treat me with a little more respect. I know I haven't always given you that respect, but your incessant claims that I am just like Trump are offensive."

Then, very shortly thereafter post- "It’s just fucking outright insanity for RJ to think he could say the same thing to poor or marginalized people in MO that don’t vote because no one is representing them."

You bitch about about "personal attacks" and want respect and say I am fucking outright insane. Talk about abject hypocrisy.

Maybe if those people in MO voted they would have one of the reddest states in the country.

No, you literally didn't provide any counter arguments. You just kept saying the same old tired stuff about how a vote for a third party is a vote for republicans.

You didn't address this:

"I am, i think, making a separate argument. That is that no party is owed someone's vote. They have to earn it. If McCaskill loses to Hawley, it won't be mine or the Green Party's fault. It will be McCaskill's fault. She is running just a terrible centrist campaign in a state that just overwhelming dominated big money interest with the rejection of MO's right to work law. She has a very rocky relationship with black voters in KC, and recently black leaders in KC refused to write a letter in support of her. She is one of the richest people in Congress. No one I know here feels like she gives a fuck about their material conditions. A "blue no matter what" position will never hold anyone accountable."

You didn't address this...

"You keep saying that this vote or that vote will reverse everything accomplished. Before Trump even came along, we were seeing the reversal of past gains. I don't disagree that it may set us back. I'm arguing that liberalism is wholly incapable of fighting for, winning, and sustaining the kind of change I want to see in the world. That has never been more apparent than in the failures of the Obama administration."

...Other than to say Obama is the least worst president in my life. Not exactly high praise or a convincing argument against why I think liberalism is completely insufficient to fight fascism and the power of capital.

You didn't answer this question:

"How do you think the Democratic party has done fighting for those same values?"

I'm sorry that you think that was a personal attack. I didn't intend for it to be. I was attacking the idea, not you. I just abhor the idea of shaming anyone for not voting Democrat or not voting at all. It's patronizing and against the idea of self-determination.

 

[PhDeac]

What does that have to do with Claire McCaskill being unpopular, and the people of Missouri not wanting to vote for her? That has nothing to do with DSA.

What I said. Sitting on the sidelines does nothing.

 

[MHBDemon]

What I said. Sitting on the sidelines does nothing.

Neither does blaming/shaming those sitting on the sideline. Give them something to vote for.

 

[PhDeac]

No. That’s just stubborn and it doesn’t recognize the urgency of what is going on. How would things be worse if people on the far left showed up for Hillary in 2016?

 

[MHBDemon]

What is stubborn about asking a party to develop a strong enough platform and provide a candidate better than a fucking snake oil salesman? Did I say things would be worse if Hillary won?

 

[PhDeac]

'17 Specials & '18 Midterms Thread

What is stubborn about asking a party to develop a strong enough platform and provide a candidate better than a fucking snake oil salesman? Did I say things would be worse if Hillary won?

Your whole claim is that it’s fine that people didn’t show up to vote for the better option over the worst option because they’re super picky.

Your whole argument is the “but her emails” of the left.

Do you like women having reproductive rights? Well thanks to non-voters, your state may not allow the right to choose anymore.

 

[MHBDemon]

We seem stuck in this perpetual cycle where people constantly lament the fact that we have a 2 party system and both parties suck, yet we are always too chickenshit to do anything about it. If not now, when?

 

[PhDeac]

We seem stuck in this perpetual cycle where people constantly lament the fact that we have a 2 party system and both parties suck, yet we are always too chickenshit to do anything about it. If not now, when?

No. We are in a perpetual cycle in which whiners perpetually lament the system and just sit on the sidelines instead of doing anything about it. You can’t change the game until you play it.

 

[MHBDemon]

Your whole claim is that it’s fine that people didn’t show up to vote for the better option over the worst option because they’re super picky.

Your whole argument is the “but her emails” of the left.

No, it's not. My argument is that you can't blame the voter over the party. People aren't "super picky." They (rightfully) don't think the Democratic Party will improve the material conditions in their life. The party failed them. They didn't fail the party.

 

[RJKarl]

No, you literally didn't provide any counter arguments. You just kept saying the same old tired stuff about how a vote for a third party is a vote for republicans.

You didn't address this:

"I am, i think, making a separate argument. That is that no party is owed someone's vote. They have to earn it. If McCaskill loses to Hawley, it won't be mine or the Green Party's fault. It will be McCaskill's fault. She is running just a terrible centrist campaign in a state that just overwhelming dominated big money interest with the rejection of MO's right to work law. She has a very rocky relationship with black voters in KC, and recently black leaders in KC refused to write a letter in support of her. She is one of the richest people in Congress. No one I know here feels like she gives a fuck about their material conditions. A "blue no matter what" position will never hold anyone accountable."

You have two choices. She is by far the better choice. If you turn out a huge vote for her, you will have a seat at the table. You can start grooming her replacement from the inside. As mediocre as she is, Hawley will be far more harmful. In real life, it's often not a choice between a great person and the devil. Sometimes you have to take what you can get. Play the power game. All power understands is other power. If you don't vote or throw away you vote, you don't get to play and you lose for six years.

You didn't address this...

"You keep saying that this vote or that vote will reverse everything accomplished. Before Trump even came along, we were seeing the reversal of past gains. I don't disagree that it may set us back. I'm arguing that liberalism is wholly incapable of fighting for, winning, and sustaining the kind of change I want to see in the world. That has never been more apparent than in the failures of the Obama administration."

...Other than to say Obama is the least worst president in my life. Not exactly high praise or a convincing argument against why I think liberalism is completely insufficient to fight fascism and the power of capital.

For 100 years, we have been trying to get healthcare for more and more people covered. Obama did it. He also helped middle class and poor people afford care. But that'that's not important to you. For the first time a POTUS stood up and for and passed equal pay for equal work for women. Again, this doesn't count because he didn't EVERYTHING, it doesn't count. He fought for gay rights in the military and public. Again, it doesn't count.

You don't think about the fact that he had THE MOST OBSTRUCTIONIST Senate Majority Leader in US history. The Top 6 years of clotures happened because McConnell and Republicans thought Obama was too liberal.

You didn't answer this question:

"How do you think the Democratic party has done fighting for those same values?"

Of course they could do better, but it's no comparison between the two parties and if you don't help the lesser of the two evils, you will be left out in the cold. The more things you do to help. The more power you have. There's no way to dramatically change a country if you don't have power.

If you think you can change without playing at all, you are simply wrong.

I'm sorry that you think that was a personal attack. I didn't intend for it to be. I was attacking the idea, not you. I just abhor the idea of shaming anyone for not voting Democrat or not voting at all. It's patronizing and against the idea of self-determination.

If you are allowed to and don't vote (unless you are ill), you DESERVE to be shamed. If you don't vote, you don't have the right to bitch. At this point, if you don't Democratic, you are supporting the fascist Republicans. You can dream all you like, but I'm talking about the current reality.

You talk about unions without knowing their real political power. It's not about their money. It's because their leaders can turn out millions of votes. Build your group. Along the way, build your power. Sitting out or throwing away your power/votes guarantees you will fail.

The old guard is ready to go. You have an opportunity. Don't let your ego and arrogance blow it hoping for perfection that will never happen.

 

[PhDeac]

'17 Specials & '18 Midterms Thread

No, it's not. My argument is that you can't blame the voter over the party. People aren't "super picky." They (rightfully) don't think the Democratic Party will improve the material conditions in their life. The party failed them. They didn't fail the party.

That’s super picky. No candidate or party will ever please everybody on the left in order to 100% lock up their vote. That puts the left in a tough position every cycle.

If the expectation on the left is that the party will lose X% after the primary, Republicans will win every time. The picky left will just be complaining about platforms while conservatives just do as they please with little resistance.

 

[TuffaloDeac10]

You have talked about how more people are involved than ever before. Are you really going to act like Bernie and AOC haven’t helped make that happen?

Both Bernie and AOC positioned themselves (and are!) hostile to the existing power structure within the party, as did the two Pittsburgh-area candidates who knocked off the PA machine cousins. In a lot of states, there's good reason to run as a Democrat. In no state whatsoever is it a good idea to work w/ DCCC or other party organs.

 

[PhDeac]

Both Bernie and AOC positioned themselves (and are!) hostile to the existing power structure within the party, as did the two Pittsburgh-area candidates who knocked off the PA machine cousins. In a lot of states, there's good reason to run as a Democrat. In no state whatsoever is it a good idea to work w/ DCCC or other party organs.

I agree with that. Running and winning is the first step to transplanting those organs.

 

[RJKarl]

Both Bernie and AOC positioned themselves (and are!) hostile to the existing power structure within the party, as did the two Pittsburgh-area candidates who knocked off the PA machine cousins. In a lot of states, there's good reason to run as a Democrat. In no state whatsoever is it a good idea to work w/ DCCC or other party organs.

This makes more sense than MDMH or MHB, but once you are on the ballot you do need some help.

 

[TuffaloDeac10]

PhDeac is there any limiting principle to the duty to vote (and organize?) for the less-bad candidate? Who would you vote for if a general election pitted George W Bush against Erik Prince? What blame would a non-voter (eta: or 3rd party) deserve for the ensuing regime?

 

[MHBDemon]

If you are allowed to and don't vote (unless you are ill), you DESERVE to be shamed.

ugh. just disgusting. You and PH are just talking in truisms "like you can't change the game without playing." When is it ever the candidate or party's fault?

 

[TuffaloDeac10]

Everyone to Elizabeth Warren's right is a Kadet

 

[PhDeac]

PhDeac is there any limiting principle to the duty to vote (and organize?) for the less-bad candidate? Who would you vote for if a general election pitted George W Bush against Erik Prince? What blame would a non-voter (eta: or 3rd party) deserve for the ensuing regime?

That’s part of my point. That choice isn’t happening and if you think that’s the choice, you’re delusional because you make out Democrats to be far worse than they really are.

I didn’t like Arne Duncan and the reformist tint of Obama’s DOE but I’m smart enough to know Republicans would be much worse, which they are. If you are truly a liberal, Democrats are a better choice than Republicans. If you don’t like the Democrats, you can join them and change them. The Republicans won’t give you the time of day.

 

[MHBDemon]

We just witnessed urban areas, controlled mainly by Democrats, fawn over and get in a bidding war to give tax breaks to the richest man in the world so he could expand his monopoly, overwhelm city infrastructure, and continue to pay poverty wages. Then we witnessed democrats one upping each other on who loved John McCain more. McCain's conservative ideology wrecked people's lives. His warmongering killed countless people. And Obama just says "we never doubted we were on the same team." Some McCain chief of staff wants to run as a Dem and Clinton donors go join the Trump admin. You guys see all this shit and then just scratch your head like you can't figure out why no one wants to vote for your shitty fucking establishment, elitist party.

Rahm is a fucking ghoul of a democrat. And he announces he's not running, and Obama is the first to issue some bullshit statement praising his service. It just shows the insidious nature of this whole charade.