'19 Special & '20 Congressional Election Thread

[PhDeac]

also Ph, I recognize the Meiosis rhetorical device you're using to dismiss the universality of my political ideology and reframe it as simply a list of my own personal wants.

I doubt you would appreciate someone referring to a demand for Black American civil rights (you know, civil rights, those things you want!) in the same casual and unserious manner, but who knows.

I'm not talking about what you want. I'm trying to figure out how you think you'll get it. You still haven't explained what the method would be.

I like the same people you like and I realize that they have to convince other people to support what they want. The difference between the two of us is that I also realize that people with a D beside their name are far more likely to be convinced than people with an R, so getting those people elected is a very important part of the process. While doing that, also get more people aligned with your thinking to run for office. It's a straight forward strategy.

Until you embrace the math issue, it's hard for me to think you actually care about making change vs. a few people who make speeches.

 

[WFU03]

WFU03, can you describe a "south carolina moderate" to me? I dont ask that in bad faith - I seriously am curious about which specific traits or beliefs that would make a candidate a safe bet moderate vs a risky liberal.

Looking at Cunningham (the rep in SC-1), he's a fairly standard Dem on some issues (environment, climate change, affordable healthcare, civil rights), but he is also in favor of free-trade agreements, strongly supports the military and veterans rights, voted against raising congressional pay, and voted against raising the minimum wage.

The reason he won and the primary issue he campaigns on is offshore drilling and the environment. Coastal South Carolinians hate the idea and he's been against it consistently. The Trump admin just gave him a gift by going against SC politicians of both parties and allowing exploration to proceed.

Just looking at Bernie's campaign site, a candidate would likely be considered a risky liberal if they supported:
-Medicare for all
-College for all
-Jobs for all
-Etc.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Until you embrace the math issue, it's hard for me to think you actually care about making change vs. a few people who make speeches.

Well, to help allievate your confusion, you should consider that it's actually unimportant which politicians I like and which I don't. Apart from top down strategic political machinations (redistricting, voter suppression) Material and cultural conditions are the main drivers of political movements. My only part is telling you how I view those conditions, and how I guess they will affect politics. It's honestly very confusing to me how you seem to believe my online bitterness is important to any outcome.

 

[PhDeac]

It doesn't. At least not by itself. I'm trying to understand your philosophy about how to get things done. I doubt you're the only one who shares it.

 

[TownieDeac]

I'm not MDMH but I don't think there is a way to realize the aims of the left through the Democratic Party of the United States. You can elect and enact local and piecemeal and small changes but not wholesale within the party confines, rules, and leadership. I don't think it's possible.

 

[PhDeac]

I'm not MDMH but I don't think there is a way to realize the aims of the left through the Democratic Party of the United States. You can elect and enact local and piecemeal and small changes but not wholesale within the party confines, rules, and leadership. I don't think it's possible.

We saw the far-right execute a full takeover of the Republican Party within less than 10 years.
We've seen incredible Progressive gains in the Democratic Party within the last two years.

Your point only makes sense if the aims of the left are simply to be to the left.

You surely can't believe the way to realize aims is to fracture any push back to the Republican Party. We have to be realistic. Power in this country comes from having half+1 people who support your goals. That's it. Any efforts that don't include that basic math will fall short.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

It doesn't. At least not by itself. I'm trying to understand your philosophy about how to get things done. I doubt you're the only one who shares it.

What things? Plenty of things "get done" - things on behalf of capital. IMO, nearly everything that "gets done" is in service of capital, even the social justice movement. Surely you recognize that every political compromise that occurs, that you ask people like me to support, are nearly all economic "compromises". What black man is begging the government to consider him 3/4 of a man? None - that's would be ridiculous. Compromises, in terms of candidates or legislation, are not something that a reasonable person seeks out, they are something you temporarily resign yourself to. I will never fight for a compromise, particularly as nearly every"compromise" costs the ideals and demands which poor and disenfranchised people hold most dearly. Let the comfortable South Carolina moderate compromise their comfort. Let Nancy Pelosi or Joe Manchin compromise *their* wealth. Why are you so set upon asking ME to compromise?

So how do I believe things get done? Well...they don't. Shit sucks. I'll still fight for what I believe is right. I'll volunteer in my community, participate in activism, vote, etc, but ultimately I have no faith whatsoever in our politics as long as "moderates" control the Democratic Party.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

What I would ask anyone here to do, sincerely, is take economic justice just as seriously as you take racial justice, and then reconsider moderate politics. If you won't reconsider moderate politics, at least reconsider how you speak about economic justice to the people like me who are demanding it, on behalf of myself, but also very much on behalf of all the economically precarious people who you don't argue with online.

 

[PhDeac]

What I would ask anyone here to do, sincerely, is take economic justice just as seriously as you take racial justice, and then reconsider moderate politics. If you won't reconsider moderate politics, at least reconsider how you speak about economic justice to the people like me who are demanding it, on behalf of myself, but also very much on behalf of all the economically precarious people who you don't argue with online.

I'm not talking about economic justice. I'm talking about political strategies for making change.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

I'm not talking about economic justice. I'm talking about political strategies for making change.

My political strategy is to let a wave of poverty, homelessness, and climate catastrophe push Democrat voters to pay more taxes and place a higher economic responsibility upon corporations and the ultra wealthy. Thats it. I dont have any click bait hacks of tricking shitty establishment Dem politicians into supporting my beliefs right now.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

but, I do have to say that burning a bunch of shit down, including a police station, seemed to do a lot, so maybe that's a strategy - its a lot more dignified then begging yuppies for scraps.

 

[JuiceCrewAllStar]

We've seen incredible Progressive gains in the Democratic Party within the last two years.

has the capital-p Party endorsed any of the major progressive campaigns? M4A or Green New Deal or Defund the Police or the like?

much less put resources toward making it happen?


I think that's the frustration -- the move left within the party is in spite of party leadership, not because of

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

has the capital-p Party endorsed any of the major progressive campaigns? M4A or Green New Deal or Defund the Police or the like?

much less put resources toward making it happen?


I think that's the frustration -- the move left within the party is in spite of party leadership, not because of

Continuing on your point - this is why many of us disagreed with the Democratic sentiment that Bernie Sanders wouldn't be able to work with the Democratic Party or get anything done. From my knowledge, the lefts hypothesis is that the Democratic Party needs progressive leadership inorder to move it left. A progressive-leftist president would have provided cover for much of the rest of the party to adopt leftist stances, and would have applied pressure to the conservative Democratic wing to compromise.

 

[TownieDeac]

I don’t want to speak for tilt or ChrisL here but basically why should the party move

Biden won, and the most he owes the party is task forces and promises

 

[PhDeac]

You all think of the Party as some highly structured immoveable object. I think of the Party as a mechanism that anybody can use, an empty shell, a blank slate, so to speak, if they’re willing to put in the work to build coalitions.

I’ll take the risk of being accused of “politics as sport” but the Party is like a team. There’s nothing set in stone that an NFL team has to be a passing team or running team. Identity depends on personnel. The team name doesn’t determine the identity. All it does is put a group of people on the schedule and give them a chance to win.

Parties have changed ideology through history. Democrats went from the party of southern white Protestants to the party who elected the first Catholic President within a few decades. Again, Republicans are much further to the right than they were 12 years ago. The far right showed up, raised their voice, voted, and ran.

 

[TownieDeac]

I don’t see any evidence to support your first paragraph

 

[PhDeac]

I don’t see any evidence to support your first paragraph

The third paragraph is evidence to support the first paragraph.

Have you all ever been to a local Democratic party meeting? I live in one of the swingiest areas of a famous swing region of an infamous swing state. If you show up and volunteer, you can be a leader in no time. It’s basically a bunch of high energy women retirees trying their best.

Here’s a good example. 2016 Bernie supporters formed a Progressive Caucus in 2017. They show up. Now they’re highly influential in the local party.

Their two candidates won County Commission primaries and beat Republicans. One beat an incumbent and the other won countywide. There was already one progressive on the commission from 2016 so now progressive women make up three of seven members.

One of the leaders is the favorite to win the school board election. A few city councilmen are members.

 

[TownieDeac]

I’m with you there. Local action is very effective. I just don’t believe in the power to scale it nationally.

 

[PhDeac]

I’m with you there. Local action is very effective. I just don’t believe in the power to scale it nationally.

Why not? Do you mean a third party would have to scale it or that there is no route for progressive national politics?

 

[TownieDeac]

I mean I’m jaded from two decades of trying