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A wet dream for conservatives

TR1982 said:
This is an effect of why people don't do these things very often, not a cause. You didn't answer the question. Why do these things not happen very often?
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Because faulty governments have caused them or have not prevented them as well as they should have (usually because they are too big and causing force and fraud themselves). That's why they happen more often than they should. You are quite right, we need governments to stop these. But they don't happen most of the time because people are good.
 
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DreamOnDemOn said:
Because faulty governments have caused them or have not prevented them as well as they should have (usually because they are too big and causing force and fraud themselves).
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No, that's a reason why they do happen. I'm looking for a reason why they don't happen very often.
 
TR1982 said:
No, that's a reason why they do happen. I'm looking for a reason why they don't happen very often.
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Because people have evolved to do the right thing most of the time? Or because capitalism punishes them for doing the wrong thing?
 
DreamOnDemOn said:
Because people have evolved to do the right thing most of the time? Or because capitalism punishes them for doing the wrong thing?
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Wait, when did this happen? At what point did we do the wrong thing most of the time, and start doing the right thing most of the time? Also, in the absence of government, how does capitalism punish people for doing the wrong thing? Does capitalism punish pickpockets? It seems evident that capitalism rewards them.
 
Capitalism does not punish people fro doing the wrong thing. In fact it often rewards people greatly for doing the wrong. This would be heightened without the "fraud" or "force" from the government it would be demonstrably worse.
 
Let me repeat: a very important function of government is to fight force and fraud with force. But most of the time, we don't use force and/or fraud on one another. If we did, no amount of government could stop it. Capitalism most definitely punishes fraud and force, you all know this. Please stop saying that libertarians don't want to have police or courts.

TR, do you think people have evolved better morals than dogs? When did this happen?
 
DreamOnDemOn said:
Let me repeat: a very important function of government is to fight force and fraud with force. But most of the time, we don't use force and/or fraud on one another. If we did, no amount of government could stop it. Capitalism most definitely punishes fraud and force, you all know this. Please stop saying that libertarians don't want to have police or courts.

TR, do you think people have evolved better morals than dogs? When did this happen?
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I do? In what way does capitalism punish force and fraud? Saying that I know it is true does not make it true.

And your dog analogy is a non-sequitur, but I'll bite (pun intended). I don't think it's a closed book whether or not we have more highly developed morals than dogs. I've encountered dogs that have acted in a much more moral fashion than many humans I know. It's not necessarily true that our sense of morality is more developed.
 
TR1982 said:
I do? In what way does capitalism punish force and fraud? Saying that I know it is true does not make it true.

And your dog analogy is a non-sequitur, but I'll bite (pun intended). I don't think it's a closed book whether or not we have more highly developed morals than dogs. I've encountered dogs that have acted in a much more moral fashion than many humans I know. It's not necessarily true that our sense of morality is more developed.
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If Apple routinely defrauded people with their products, Apple would not be a successful company. That is not true of government programs which routinely fail and use that failure as an excuse to take more of the taxpayer's money by force.

As to the dogs. I love dogs, but they need a master to keep them from getting stuck together naked. Most people don't need a master. I hope you agree on that.
 
For hundreds of thousands of years dogs lived in the wild without humans. I think it's human cruelty to dogs to not let them be naked.

Companies don't have to routinely defraud people to make millions. With the "force" of the government, there would be tons of Love canal's ,exploding gas tanks, flaming kiddie PJs, lead in toothpaste, etc.
 
DreamOnDemOn said:
If Apple routinely defrauded people with their products, Apple would not be a successful company. That is not true of government programs which routinely fail and use that failure as an excuse to take more of the taxpayer's money by force.

As to the dogs. I love dogs, but they need a master to keep them from getting stuck together naked. Most people don't need a master. I hope you agree on that.
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Yeah, the corporate analogy is nice, but it only works for sellers in a marketplace. How does capitalism punish a pickpocket?

And why do dogs need masters but humans don't? What evidence do you have that humans would behave any differently from dogs in an anarchic society? There is substantial evidence that humans behave worse. See how our morally evolved race is behaving in Somalia. What about those morally evolved Serbs who massacred thousands of Bosniak women and children in front of Belgian peacekeepers at Srebrenica for no reason? Thank God capitalism punished them. Go read about China after the fall of the Qing dynasty. Or France after the fall of the Louis XVI. My personal favorite is the story of the enlightened Genghis Khan. There is no dearth of examples. Read up.
 
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But corporations could do a cost/benefit analysis to understand they could make $5M or $500M by defrauding the public, take the money and run to the next scam under a new name.

In no way does capitalism prevent fraud or theft by companies without the "force" of government.
 
Bad people got control of the government in Serbia and France. RJ I remind you once again the us libertarians want a very effective justice system to counter force and fraud.

Dogs really can't think far enough into the future to see the advantages of doing the thing all the time. Well sme of them can but surely humans are better
 
You aren't a libertarian. You are so far past libertarians that they couldn't find you with a space probe.
 
DreamOnDemOn said:
Bad people got control of the government in Serbia and France. RJ I remind you once again the us libertarians want a very effective justice system to counter force and fraud.

Dogs really can't think far enough into the future to see the advantages of doing the thing all the time. Well sme of them can but surely humans are better
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Uh, no. The government of Bosnia collapsed. The genocide was being perpetrated by normal citizens. Same thing happened in Rwanda.
 
TR1982 said:
Uh, no. The government of Bosnia collapsed. The genocide was being perpetrated by normal citizens. Same thing happened in Rwanda.
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Do you think that most people want to perpetrate genocide? I thought the Serbian government leaders were being tried for war crimes or inciting war crimes. Did the collapse of the Bosnian government cause the Bosnians to comit genocide because they are inhereently worse than dogs?
 
Ethnic factions that hate each other, and believe the other is no better than a dog.

Hate is not an invention of government. Some governments certainly act as administrators of hate, but hate is purely human.
 
WakeandBake said:
Ethnic factions that hate each other, and believe the other is no better than a dog.

Hate is not an invention of government. Some governments certainly act as administrators of hate, but hate is purely human.
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Aren't governments human? Didn't the government humans cause most of the world's killing?
 
Well, are humans as a rule trying to kill one another? Are the subset of humans that are the government better people in general than the rest of us, or maybe worse, or maybe some better and some worse? If they are not any better than the rest of us in general, why does the US put 40% of the GDP under their control? Would it not be better to leave more of that in the hands of the people who will have to suffer if they make a mistake (and maybe learn how to do better next time)?
 
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