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Americans becoming less religious due to conservative politics

This is actually one of the few theilogical items in which I agree with rev. I think often the finite tries to put the infinite into logical terms. When if you really think about it that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If God really created us and is super natural then the laws don't apply to him.
 
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It's actually just a systematic theology that takes seriously the idea of mystery, but I get how it might look that way from the outside.

That's cool -- I can get on board with some Kierkegaard shit. That and liberation theology are about the only strains of Christianity I can stomach.
 
This is actually one of the few theilogical items in which I agree with rev. I think often the finite tries to put the infinite into logical terms. When if you really think about it that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If God really created us and is super natural then the laws don't apply to him.

Which is really convenient.
 
This is actually one of the few theilogical items in which I agree with rev. I think often the finite tries to put the infinite into logical terms. When if you really think about it that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If God really created us and is super natural then the laws don't apply to him.

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Why does God need to be logical? Is logic the only way of relating to, or understanding, the world?

This is so cute.


The argument is, 8 year old sailordeac, that if you need to rely on "because that's the way it is" logic, then perhaps people than can think beyond such terrible means can poke holes through your argument. When your basic premise is, "because I say so" you are basically just a parent trying to hang on to whatever authority you perceive yourself to have.



In short, yes. Without BLIND FAITH, logic is the only way to understand the world.



And again, I belive that a God exists. I just think he fucked off from our planet a long time ago and started working on a better version. We suck as a species. I would have fucked off too.
 
Don't be silly. Lots of things exist that cannot be apprehended particularly well by logic. None the less they are real. Logic is obviously not the only way to understand the world. Try art for example, just for starters. There is nothing particularly logical about art. Yet, it is a perfectly common way of trying to relate to and understand the world. And often a rather satisfying one. Why don't you insist that art conform to the rules of logic because if it does not, then it obviously does not exist? You of all people should be aware of these things. I can think of no poster on these boards that lets his heart rule his head more often than you.
 
Can we please get back to the real meaning of Jesus?

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And I'm relation to that picture, I think some of the over worship of Jesus is idolatry.
 
Anything can be broken down into logical pieces, even art. You can break art down with math, chemistry, physics, etc. the things we don't have a logical argument for are only that way because we haven't figured out the rational pieces of those puzzles yet.
 
Anything can be broken down into logical pieces, even art. You can break art down with math, chemistry, physics, etc. the things we don't have a logical argument for are only that way because we haven't figured out the rational pieces of those puzzles yet.

If you haven't done so already, I recommend a visit to the Louvre. The math, chemistry, physics, ect. there are incredible.
 
Don't often say this, but I'm with Junebug on this. Yes, logic is crucial- God gave us brains, nothing wrong with using them. But the notion that everything will be explained eventually is myopic and sounds very much like a LaPlace sort of error. There is nothing wrong with mystery- in a way, isn't that what some of our understandings of quantum physics point to? The world is a scary place, and a lot of people look to assuage their fears by fooling themselves into a false sense of control or predictability, but it's just not that simple.
 
Well, if you believe in some sort of higher power, it isn't a particularly provocative viewpoint to take that there are forces at work outside of the human comprehension of logic. You can just as easiy say that people who believe in this assuage their fears by fooling themselves into a false sense of comfort that some power or force in the universe has control/order over everything instead of accepting that life is random to a large degree.

As for me, I have accepted that it is the unanswerable question. I do have a sense that if there is some higher power, that it is almost nothing like humanity would conceive.
 
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Well, if you believe in some sort of higher power, it isn't a particularly provocative viewpoint to take that there are forces at work outside of the human comprehension of logic. You can just as easiy say that people who believe in this assuage their fears by fooling themselves into a false sense of comfort that some power or force in the universe has control/order over everything instead of accepting that life is random to a large degree.

As for me, I have accepted that it is the unanswerable question. I do have a sense that if there is some higher power, that it is almost nothing like humanity would conceive.

I'd agree with that. Where I might push a bit is by introducing the idea of revelation- now, I'm not talking about dogma, but revelation about the Creator in the realm of nature. And as a Christian, I'd say this revelation was seen most clearly in Jesus of Nazareth who preached a subversive, but simple, message of love, reconciliation, selflessness, and peace, which I'd say points back to and is consistent with other sorts of revelations found in the ideas nature and a universal ethic. I'll give you that the religious have put a ton of crap on top of that message and screwed it up.
 
People who hold a scientific view of the world like to pretend that their views are based on nothing but data. I get why, paricularly from a psychological standpoint. And on a granular level, it may be true that scientists base their views only on the data. But the assumption that the world can ultimatley be explained as a complex aggregation of data is not a scientific view. It is a philosophical one that, like all philosophical views, is based on presuppositions and unprovable postulates.

A philosophical one until we develop a physical understanding of what is actually happening. At that point we move to trying to solve the next philosophical view. Isn't that how science is supposed to work?

Yes, for example, down the road we might figure out that dark energy is being caused by the interaction of another universe. Under our current understanding, it would be impossible to interact with that universe so it would, under your definition, be considered philosophical. But what is to say we wouldn't have developed some type of wormhole technology at that point to travel there?

I just don't see a reason to invoke a philosophical explanation. Especially given our current level of scientific understanding.
 
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

Albert Einstein

"I suspect that the rest of science is similar."

tjcmd
 
A fragment attributed to the classical Greek poet Archilocus reads as follows, "... the fox knows many things but the hedgehog knows one big thing ...". The twentieth-century literary historian and philosopher Isaiah Berlin, in an essay of Tolstoy's view of history, suggested that it could be applied to categorize western thinkers as either hedgehogs or as foxes. The hedgehogs subordinate everything to one central idea and arrange and subordinate their concepts and views of everything around it, while the foxes are far too alert to the complexities, contradictions, and varieties, which characterize the world, to ever be able to restrict their thinking to one central principle. According to this categorization, Plato was obviously a hedgehog, while Aristotle was a fox; Shakespeare and obvious fox, while Marx was without a doubt a hedgehog. Some may be easy to identify, while others are not.

For some - which people may be free to speculate or argue about - reason, the pro- science and reason and therefore critical of the idea of God group on these boards are most likely hedgehogs, while their opponents are likely foxes. I plead guilty of being a fox. Both groups have a valid point of view and neither is likely to be able to convince the other to abandon their natural inclination and see the world according to the other group's point of view. As Berlin shows in his thought-provoking essay, Tolstoy was by nature a fox but he tried to understand history as a hedgehog. Nevertheless, the fox in him always foiled the effort. Try as they might, foxes cannot see the world as hedgehogs, or vice versa.
 
A philosophical one until we develop a physical understanding of what is actually happening. At that point we move to trying to solve the next philosophical view. Isn't that how science is supposed to work?

Yes, for example, down the road we might figure out that dark energy is being caused by the interaction of another universe. Under our current understanding, it would be impossible to interact with that universe so it would, under your definition, be considered philosophical. But what is to say we wouldn't have developed some type of wormhole technology at that point to travel there?

I just don't see a reason to invoke a philosophical explanation. Especially given our current level of scientific understanding.

You need a philosophical explanation because the statement "everything can ultimately be explained by science" is a presumption that cannot logically be supported using only scientific methods.
 
You need a philosophical explanation because the statement "everything can ultimately be explained by science" is a presumption that cannot logically be supported using only scientific methods.

I thought I made that clear. I'm saying that until we are sure we need a philosophical explanation for anything. Let's just hold off.
 
I don't follow. Are you saying that we shouldn't do philosophy because science may eventually provide an explanation for everything, thus making philosophy unnecessary? If I'm understanding you correctly, isn't that still a philosophy? Actually, because it appears that you are admitting that it is an empirically unprovable presupposition (at this point in history anyway) that science will eventually answer everything, doesn't your view resemble faith more than it does philosophy?

Let me clarify. My view is that humanity has done an outstanding job at filling in the gaps in our understanding of the universe. And that is only over 6,000 some odd years.

If you extrapolate from our past success, it only seems logical that we would continue pushing back the barriers of the unknown.

I'm certain we will encounter something that ultimately proves unknowable. Assuming that the creator still wants to test our faith, it probably won't be as blatant as finding the ten commandments on a planet somewhere. If that assumption is correct, I cannot envision a scenario where I would attribute it to a supernatural explanation.

Does that make sense?

Under no circumstances do I think that we should stop practicing philosophy.
 
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