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Anatomy of the Collapse of a Failed City

Wrangor said:
So let me get this correct. White people leaving is your stance? Black people aren't able to support themselves? They require white people to support them?
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Profound misreading though I can see how you get there. White people leaving was bad. It wasn't bad because white people are awesome or anything. It's bad because there are a host of "colorblind" policies that actually serve to advantage white people over persons of color and when the ratio changes things get worse. As an example, social security was passed with huge southern support and it initially excluded agricultural and domestic workers. That's "colorblind"[SUP]1[/SUP]. Housing finance worked similarly over the New Deal[SUP]2[/SUP] era and beyond. Until the CRA passed in 1977, banks had wide latitude to refuse to lend to entire areas and they did so[SUP]3[/SUP]. These redlining maps also lined up with government urban renewal project maps and were usually though not exclusively in minority neighborhoods. When blacks moved in, capital moved out. It's hard to thrive in that situation and Detroit is just one of a number of metros that hasn't.

A city doesn't need white people to be successful, but they help a lot because higher levels of government help them a lot. Black people aren't a problem; systematic plunder of black people is the problem.

1. It's also why any test requiring invidious intent for a law to be struck down is bullshit.

2. Not to say the New Deal isn't the Left's greatest achievement or laudable, just that it passed because it advanced white supremacists' aims. It has been and can be further expanded to work against white supremacists.

3. In the post CRA era, banks just sell subprime products to prime borrowers of color. Not a good look.
 
You just made some great points that have almost nothing to do with Detroit. Detroit failed in the last 20 years. This is during the time that things supposedly should have gotten better as more progressive laws have passed to correct some of the misguided and racist rulings of the past century.


I do not argue one bit that we have a history of racism in this country, but there is very little evidence that racism is the originator for the problems of Detroit. You have listed to very real issues of the past and wrongly applied them to Detroit.

Does racism exist in Detroit? Yes. Is it the cause of the cities massive failures? Not a chance.
 
Here's the anatomy of Miami with 6 ft sea level rise. Looks like a fail to me. I'm sure they've got a US Senator working to arrest climate change in some way, though.

MiamiSeaLevelRiseConfidence6Ft_NOAA.jpg
 
Wrangor said:
You just made some great points that have almost nothing to do with Detroit. Detroit failed in the last 20 years. This is during the time that things supposedly should have gotten better as more progressive laws have passed to correct some of the misguided and racist rulings of the past century.


I do not argue one bit that we have a history of racism in this country, but there is very little evidence that racism is the originator for the problems of Detroit. You have listed to very real issues of the past and wrongly applied them to Detroit.

Does racism exist in Detroit? Yes. Is it the cause of the cities massive failures? Not a chance.
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Sweet handwaving. I won't waste any more of my time.
 
Wrangor said:
You just made some great points that have almost nothing to do with Detroit. Detroit failed in the last 20 years. This is during the time that things supposedly should have gotten better as more progressive laws have passed to correct some of the misguided and racist rulings of the past century.


I do not argue one bit that we have a history of racism in this country, but there is very little evidence that racism is the originator for the problems of Detroit. You have listed to very real issues of the past and wrongly applied them to Detroit.

Does racism exist in Detroit? Yes. Is it the cause of the cities massive failures? Not a chance.
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The seeds of Detroit's downfall were planted far earlier than 20 years ago and for the reasons posted. Historian Thomas Sugrue has written extensively and accessibly on the Detroit case if you're interested.
 
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jhmd2000 said:
The problem is racism. It is always racism. It is never not racism.
P.S. the auto industry is doing fine in right to work states (most of which are widely regarded as the headwaters of all forms of intolerance). Maybe it isn't always racism.

I think we should raise taxes to the point at which we are willing to cut our spending and pay our bills in full and on time like adults. we should stop telling bedtime stories about dragons, wizards and sustainable public pensions.

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Raise taxes huh? You have to be one of the only pubs that thinks this is the correct way to go. The tea party will lynch you ass.
 
Wrangor is the bodyguard; Tuffalo playing the role of Solange.

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Whoever said I was a Republican?

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jhmd2000 said:
Behold the smoldering crater of Detroit: a monument to the perils of the false comforts of collectivism. This is what happens when you convince enough people that is always someone else's turn to pay their bills.

P.S. Hey Chicago, think it can't happen to you, too? You might want to work on $19.5B in unfunded public pensions so you don't have to find out. Or don't, and we can all be assured that Chicago went under because of racism in Detroit in 1968. Whichever.
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yeah cause there's never been any racism or white flight in Chicago.

There is a legitimate discussion to be had about what cities should do to fix the effects of institutionalized racism. Detroit is a great example of what not to do. If you actually want to reverse those effects its helpful to know where they came from. I suspect JMHD and others don't actually have any desire to reverse those effects, they are just looking for talking points about Democrats failed policies and then using those talking points to absolve themselves from doing anything about the situation.

I am not a Democrat because I don't buy the logic behind many of their policies, but at least they are trying to help the less fortunate in this country instead of sitting on their hands and yelling about how the other side is failing (or actively encouraging that failure).
 
RChildress107 said:
yeah cause there's never been any racism or white flight in Chicago.

There is a legitimate discussion to be had about what cities should do to fix the effects of institutionalized racism. Detroit is a great example of what not to do. If you actually want to reverse those effects its helpful to know where they came from. I suspect JMHD and others don't actually have any desire to reverse those effects, they are just looking for talking points about Democrats failed policies and then using those talking points to absolve themselves from doing anything about the situation.

I am not a Democrat because I don't buy the logic behind many of their policies, but at least they are trying to help the less fortunate in this country instead of sitting on their hands and yelling about how the other side is failing (or actively encouraging that failure).
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It's a shame that ignorance isn't painful. To argue that discriminatory housing policy hasn't contributed to the downfall if inner-city neighborhoods, and associated issues, is remarkably stupid.

Wrangor, do you understand the logic of path dependency?
 
Is Detroit's unfunded pension problem based on money owed to government employee pensions only?

Let me say that a different way. Did Detroit's government subsidize private companies' pension plans as an incentive to stay in Detroit or keep them solvent?
 
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Let's not forget the role of the interstate highway system in white flight and the decline of inner cities as well.
 
Ok. That was funny.
 
Well I just mean that if you are going to keep the white folks at their cubicles in Detroit where they belong you are going to have to do some kind of racial profiling or affirmative action at the airports. If crackers feel disrespected they'll swallow their diamonds and hop the 0530 out of DTW.
 
Strickland33 said:
It's a shame that ignorance isn't painful. To argue that discriminatory housing policy hasn't contributed to the downfall if inner-city neighborhoods, and associated issues, is remarkably stupid.

Wrangor, do you understand the logic of path dependency?
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Straw man alert. No one argued that housing policy didn't in some way CONTRIBUTE. The statement was made that racism was the cause of the fall of Detroit. That is a painfully ignorant statement.

Path dependency is a real phenomenon that was encouraged by the failed policies of Detroit. When you make it easier and easier to stay in a rut by continually subsidizing inactivity then the cost barrier to get out of that rut because more and more of an obstacle. This is true in both business and personal finances.

You unknowingly made a great point against yourself. Path dependency is a huge part of the failure of Detroit. The government and union policies encouraged status quo and whenever status quo began to change they fought it back (government and unions). Instead of allowing Detroit to evolve with the times (and allowing people to change and adapt) the city government and unions put a hedge around the businesses and people of Detroit.


While the rest of the world fought through tough changes, Detroit stayed behind the hedge. When the local government ran out of money and when the businesses could not longer afford the unions demands/pensions, the hedge died and the reality of a changed economy and world came busting through the gates. The city crumbled because the cost to change at that point in time was completely unmanageable. If the city had been allowed to change naturally it could have absorbed the hits and improved gradually over time.
 
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