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As the New Basketball Season Begins....

deacvision7 said:
My point is that you are knocking JTT because he is no longer here and praising CMM simply because he is our current player.

I honestly don't think you put any more thought into it than that.

You are basing your thoughts on CMM thru a HS all star game (seriously? that's when you see fundamentals???), a game against a Canadian nobody team and an exhibition vs a team predicted to finish 4th (or is it 5th?) in some random conference in division 2. Sweet.

JTT will light it up this season is my prediction. He might be frustrating as fuck (he is) but that is a very talented basketball player.
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That is not the case at all. But, if that is what you want to think there is nothing I can do about it.
 
PirateDeacon said:
No I'm not questioning his recruiting ability, I'm questioning his coaching ability which sucked. I completely agree that you don't spit out bad medicine and chew on a turd but you sure as hell don't keep the bad medicine in your mouth either.

He should've have gone after a proven winner that was young from a mid major conference.
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We didn't hire Bill Self, or Rick Pitino, or Shaka Smart, or Tubby Smith, or Brad Stephens. We weren't going to hire one of those coaches. None of those coaches are going to come here. We are a middle of the pack ACC team who hasn't gone to the final four in 55 years. Would've, Could've, Should've my balls. Dino's in game coaching and 20+ wins a season was good enough for this program. I don't understand how there are people in this fanbase who can sit through the shit we've put on the court in the last 2 years and say that 20 wins and tournament bid isn't good enough. You all are never, ever going to get what you want. Ever. Jesus Christ. You see one failed post season with a good team and suddenly you're an AD and basketball expert. It took NBA HOF players to get this program to the Sweet 16, but you think James Johnson is our golden ticket?
 
What does going after a proven mid-major winner have anything to do with Bill Self, Tubby Smith or Rick Pitino? Brad Stephens likes Butler and he hasn't shown any interest in jumping to any program, let alone Wake. I don't really know about Shaka Smart but I'm sure the right price would get him to jump ship to another school.

Under Prosser, Wake was consistently at the top of the ACC except his final 2 seasons. There is no reason in the world that Wake isn't capable of being a legitimate basketball program, we play in the best conference in the country.

It isn't asking a lot to get solid results from our coaches, including the post-season. We should be able to make it to the Sweet 16 and the Elite 8 at least every now and then.

It's really selling the University short by accepting mediocrity. And it's even worse accepting poor basketball. We need to start over, assuming [Redacted] has another poor season which is highly likely.
 
PirateDeacon said:
What does going after a proven mid-major winner have anything to do with Bill Self, Tubby Smith or Rick Pitino? Brad Stephens likes Butler and he hasn't shown any interest in jumping to any program, let alone Wake. I don't really know about Shaka Smart but I'm sure the right price would get him to jump ship to another school.

Under Prosser, Wake was consistently at the top of the ACC except his final 2 seasons. There is no reason in the world that Wake isn't capable of being a legitimate basketball program, we play in the best conference in the country.

It isn't asking a lot to get solid results from our coaches, including the post-season. We should be able to make it to the Sweet 16 and the Elite 8 at least every now and then.

It's really selling the University short by accepting mediocrity. And it's even worse accepting poor basketball. We need to start over, assuming [Redacted] has another poor season which is highly likely.
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Skip finished "at the top" of the ACC one time. One, and we only made it to the 2nd round of the tournament that season. We should definitely be able to get to the sweet 16 or elite 8 every now and then. You don't fire a coach for not making it in one particular season, especially when he's built a program capable of making it there every other season. Dino's post season record would have been acceptable at 95% of the programs in the country.
On your other point, if Wake could offer enough money to hire Shaka, Shaka would have already gone to one of the 10's of programs who have offered him that amount of money already. We fired a coach coming off a 2nd round NCAA tournament run, with a top 10 incoming recruiting class, and good/great attendance. Those are actual facts, they're much more substantial and meaningful than subjective bitching about the guys debatable lack of in game coaching ability.
 
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Yeah and Prosser was getting heat after those two season before he died. The program was on the decline.

Gaudio was an interim hire, he was not a permanent choice. He was consistently out-coached in his short tenure at Wake. It should have come as no surprise that Wellman got rid of him. With that said, it was very alarming to see him hire [Redacted] who is even worse.

When you have Jeff Teague, Al-Farouq Aminu, James Johnson, Ish Smith, and several other solid role players you should expect to go deeper than the 1st round of the NCAA tourney. It could be argued that team was better than the Cp3/J Gray/Eric Williams team.

And as I've said before Gaudio did not help maintain good chemistry with that team either. I remember Johnson and Teague hating each other at one point, over a girlfriend maybe? Not sure. Regardless, the program was not in good hands and still is not in good hands. We need changes top to bottom.
 
PirateDeacon said:
When you have Jeff Teague, Al-Farouq Aminu, James Johnson, Ish Smith, and several other solid role players you should expect to go deeper than the 1st round of the NCAA tourney. It could be argued that team was better than the Cp3/J Gray/Eric Williams team.
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Not by any sane person.
 
We all realize that Ish Smith was a decent PG but nothing else, right? Putting him on the same talent pedestal as CP3, Gray, Williams, Teague, Aminu or Johnson is just so patently absurd.

Ish might be Charlie Harrison talented. Or Broderick Hicks.
 
PirateDeacon said:
Yeah and Prosser was getting heat after those two season before he died. The program was on the decline.

Gaudio was an interim hire, he was not a permanent choice. He was consistently out-coached in his short tenure at Wake. It should have come as no surprise that Wellman got rid of him. With that said, it was very alarming to see him hire [Redacted] who is even worse.

When you have Jeff Teague, Al-Farouq Aminu, James Johnson, Ish Smith, and several other solid role players you should expect to go deeper than the 1st round of the NCAA tourney. It could be argued that team was better than the Cp3/J Gray/Eric Williams team.

And as I've said before Gaudio did not help maintain good chemistry with that team either. I remember Johnson and Teague hating each other at one point, over a girlfriend maybe? Not sure. Regardless, the program was not in good hands and still is not in good hands. We need changes top to bottom.
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I disagree. We fired a good coach because our AD had an agenda against him, and I think it was a stupid, bullshit move. The notion that fired a coach for X's & O's after the 2010 season is a lie. It's simply not true.

We won 20 games in 2010 - Fact
Gaudio did not "maintain" team chemistry - Hearsay
We made the 2nd round of the tournament in 2010 - Fact
Dino got "outcoached" multiple times - Opinion
We had a top 15 incoming recruiting class in 2010 - Fact
JJ & Teague didn't like each other - Hearsay

You see how this is going? All of these endless debate points that people use to defend Dino's firing are nothing more than revised opinion. The myth of Dino's terrible in game coaching has grown with each passing year. The facts, the printable, quantifiable truth is that Dino was right in line, if not ahead of our historical success rate for head coaches, and his recruiting allowed us to expect greater things. That's truth.
 
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Teague and Aminu are starters in the NBA. James Johnson hasn't really been a force but is still in the NBA, playing with the Kings this season. Ish Smith is definitely better than Broderick Hicks, I don't ever recall Hicks playing for an NBA team. Ish Smith is still with the Magic.

J Gray/Downey never made it in the NBA. As great as they were in college, they were not suitable for NBA talent level.

And mydeaconmyhand, to say it wasn't Xs and Os is just simply being too kind to Gaudio. He was clueless when it came to teaching any type of defense to our team.
 
Adam Morrison was great in college. Is he still in the NBA?
Rick Patino is a great college level coach. How'd he do in the NBA again?

Point being, it is absolutely asinine to suggest that the 09/10 team was better than the 04/05 team. It is pure nonsense.


And I'm still not sure Ish is that good. His limited and varied calls from NBA execs aside. B Hicks made a nice living for himself regardless, btw.
 
I think you're underestimating just how well the 04 team was built. The pieces fit together so well - with people like Levy all having distinct roles. J Gray never could create his own shot, and Williams suffered without Paul, but with Paul there, there was so much offensive cohesion since he could get Gray shots all over the court, get E the ball down low etc, and Downey just decimates whoever the JJ/Teague team could bring off the bench. I get the argument for that team due to NBA talent, but it seemed like that team was getting by on pure overwhelming athleticism whereas the CP3 team was a legit machine for a while.
 
I get that, I completely agree that the 04/05 team meshed better together and I think a lot of that had to do with Prosser being a better coach than Gaudio. They played extremely well together but I still think overall that the 09/10 team had more raw talent.

I would love for any of our guys to play like J Gray/Downey now. That would be incredible, they were so much fun to watch.

This is sad talking about this by the way, I miss the Joel being packed and each game being heavily anticipated. One day we shall see it again.
 
PirateDeacon said:
And mydeaconmyhand, to say it wasn't Xs and Os is just simply being too kind to Gaudio. He was clueless when it came to teaching any type of defense to our team.
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please continue to give me more unprovable opinions. Dino was real shit compared to all our other recent, living coaches with seasons of 20 win, NCAA tournament wins, huh? Just unacceptable. How can we ever expect to make the elite 8 with a head coach who only makes the 2nd round in one season with his own players? We should certainly fire that man, even though we have no better, or lateral alternative to hire. This food isn't good enough! I just won't eat anything then!
 
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PirateDeacon said:
I get that, I completely agree that the 04/05 team meshed better together and I think a lot of that had to do with Prosser being a better coach than Gaudio. They played extremely well together but I still think overall that the 09/10 team had more raw talent.

I would love for any of our guys to play like J Gray/Downey now. That would be incredible, they were so much fun to watch.

This is sad talking about this by the way, I miss the Joel being packed and each game being heavily anticipated. One day we shall see it again.
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I absolutely couldn't disagree more.
 
PirateDeacon said:
And mydeaconmyhand, to say it wasn't Xs and Os is just simply being too kind to Gaudio. He was clueless when it came to teaching any type of defense to our team.
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Absolutely untrue. Pump the brakes and dont attempt to go there, cause it just aint true. If you had made that claim based solely on your opinion about Gaudio's offensive scheme, I wouldnt have bothered to respond.

Several other statements that you made wouldnt have elicited a response either, but since you triggered a reply based on the above, I will add that the chemistry within Dino's teams was absolutely no worse, if not better, than what we have currently. It just isnt being used in an attempt justify a poor decision. (To be clear, the poor decision reference includes the firing/hiring combination. If Dino was replaced with a clearly better coach, then there would be no complaints. The poor chemistry was between Dino and RW, not within the team. And yes, I am extremely weary of revisionist history that doesnt conform to the facts.)
 
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There is just nothing aside from his record at Wake to suggest he was a good coach, he was almost always outcoached. He was an emotional hire, that's it. Yes the replacement was worse but that doesn't mean that Gaudio was good.
 
PirateDeacon said:
There is just nothing aside from his record at Wake to suggest he was a good coach, he was almost always outcoached. He was an emotional hire, that's it. Yes the replacement was worse but that doesn't mean that Gaudio was good.
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Dude, we get it...you hate Dino. We've already seen you try drag down his reputation by to linking him to being shady/drugs because he was supposedly seen having a conversation with a guy at a bar at the beach (the same guy who invited your Dad back to his yacht for a blow...). Did he steal your girlfriend in middle school or something? Most of us thought Dino was over his head in his job, but the attempts by some fans to drag him down personally are comical. Gaudio doesn't have to be good. He was better than Bzz and that's all that matters in this discussion.

The comments about Dino's defense are particularly funny, as compared to both Skip and Bzz, he has a damn defensive genious.
 
PirateDeacon said:
I agree with this post but it was not the right move to keep Gaudio. [Redacted] was an awful hire but Wellman was right in firing Gaudio. I don't care what his overall percentage record was, he had a stacked team and still couldn't win in the tournament, both tournaments for that matter. And he had some awful non conference losses.

I say another 14 win season or less he is gone but who knows with Wellman. He has done a pretty pathetic job as of late.
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perfect summary.
 
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