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BBall Recruiting Thread 2k19 - Charles Coleman de-commits to Wake. :(

I don't know where to go to find recruiting rankings prior to the 1998 class, but perhaps that '98 class can be a bit of a guide as to Odom's approach in recruiting. 5 of the 6 recruits that year, Hicks, Songaila, Dawson, Scott and Murray were ranked between 50 & 101 (although I'm finding Ervin Murray's rank of 85-101 a little bit hard to believe). To me that seems like a realistic approach where you focus MOST of your efforts on the guys ranked 50-125 or 150 and then bring them along incrementally to complement the occasional stud. But it looks like Manning is putting too many eggs in the stud basket as we currently have offers out to the 5, 8, 9, 11, 15, 18, 19, 20, 23, 24 and 25th highest rank players per 247 Sports. We've offered at least 16 of the Top 51 (Nickleberry) and it seems like we are only really in contention with 3 or 4 (lukewarm at best?).

In the past few years, hasn't Manning offered even more of the Top 50 in hopes of casting a wide net and reeling in a big fish? So far it's yielded Craw (82), Moore (71), SJM (101), Brown (32.5), Hoard (28.5), and Zeke (85.8) as our top 6 highest rated recruits (out of 18). That doesn't seem like the best batting average, certainly when it comes to swinging for the fences at the Top 25 of each class. Perhaps Danny and company ought to have been spending a little more time courting the players in the 50-125 range, who might get picked over by their first choice in the ACC and want a chance to exact some revenge on other ACC coaches.

Instead, he spends too much time courting Cinderella at the Ball, and then gets left holding the shoe. To wit, the other 12 recruits have been mostly reaches with an avg ranking of 220, including Collins at 121. While you have to give credit to Danny for finding that huge diamond in the proverbial rough, what do you assign Cornelius Hudson, Dinos or Sunday Okeke? Even if you remove JC from the calcs, throw out Okeke and give Young Crab a 125, and Dinos a 100, that's still an avg of about 209.5. That's simply not good enough and probably nowhere close to Dave Odom quality over 12 years. That's a problem in and of itself. 2018 is certainly a step in the right direction, but he still needs a very good 2019 class to keep it rolling. Is it enough to make up for the first 3-4 years?

PS -- it was Dave's underachievement with this bunch and J-Ho that ultimately got him "un-renewed" in 2001. It was probably time for a fresh start and Prosser managed to do a bit more with that bunch than win the NIT Championship. Anyway, while Odom had the good fortune of more big-time (performance) players like RoRo and Childress and Duncan, Odom's Collins, his first 8 years, it wasn't like he had a bunch more Top 50 recruits to augment his team and push them over the top. But he came damn close for a few years with fair (average 3.5 stars?) to above-average talent, which is where Wake probably should be (two 50-75's with a few 75-150's sprinkled in). Many forget, but Odom had recruited more highly ranked players like Steve Rich, who ultimately transferred, and good 'ol Mahktar, who nearly got us put on probation. But Odom was doing a better job of assigning his priority targets and courting those coveted post guys who could make a difference for the type of style he preferred. Manning seems to be inching closer with these rangy, athletic swing men, but it won't be enough beyond 2018-19. Get crackin' Danny! Assuming you still have your job.

Since 1998, the best player on Wake’s tournament teams has either been a top 50 recruit (Chris, Johnson, Aminu) or a recruit outside the top 100 who quickly blew up into an All-ACC caliber player (Howard, Collins). Manning’s landed top 40 recruits in back to back classes. He’s taking the right approach.

Also can we not with the Collins/Duncan comparisons.
 
I don't know where to go to find recruiting rankings prior to the 1998 class, but perhaps that '98 class can be a bit of a guide as to Odom's approach in recruiting. 5 of the 6 recruits that year, Hicks, Songaila, Dawson, Scott and Murray were ranked between 50 & 101 (although I'm finding Ervin Murray's rank of 85-101 a little bit hard to believe). To me that seems like a realistic approach where you focus MOST of your efforts on the guys ranked 50-125 or 150 and then bring them along incrementally to complement the occasional stud. But it looks like Manning is putting too many eggs in the stud basket as we currently have offers out to the 5, 8, 9, 11, 15, 18, 19, 20, 23, 24 and 25th highest rank players per 247 Sports. We've offered at least 16 of the Top 51 (Nickleberry) and it seems like we are only really in contention with 3 or 4 (lukewarm at best?).

In the past few years, hasn't Manning offered even more of the Top 50 in hopes of casting a wide net and reeling in a big fish? So far it's yielded Craw (82), Moore (71), SJM (101), Brown (32.5), Hoard (28.5), and Zeke (85.8) as our top 6 highest rated recruits (out of 18). That doesn't seem like the best batting average, certainly when it comes to swinging for the fences at the Top 25 of each class. Perhaps Danny and company ought to have been spending a little more time courting the players in the 50-125 range, who might get picked over by their first choice in the ACC and want a chance to exact some revenge on other ACC coaches.

Instead, he spends too much time courting Cinderella at the Ball, and then gets left holding the shoe. To wit, the other 12 recruits have been mostly reaches with an avg ranking of 220, including Collins at 121. While you have to give credit to Danny for finding that huge diamond in the proverbial rough, what do you assign Cornelius Hudson, Dinos or Sunday Okeke? Even if you remove JC from the calcs, throw out Okeke and give Young Crab a 125, and Dinos a 100, that's still an avg of about 209.5. That's simply not good enough and probably nowhere close to Dave Odom quality over 12 years. That's a problem in and of itself. 2018 is certainly a step in the right direction, but he still needs a very good 2019 class to keep it rolling. Is it enough to make up for the first 3-4 years?

PS -- it was Dave's underachievement with this bunch and J-Ho that ultimately got him "un-renewed" in 2001. It was probably time for a fresh start and Prosser managed to do a bit more with that bunch than win the NIT Championship. Anyway, while Odom had the good fortune of more big-time (performance) players like RoRo and Childress and Duncan, Odom's Collins, his first 8 years, it wasn't like he had a bunch more Top 50 recruits to augment his team and push them over the top. But he came damn close for a few years with fair (average 3.5 stars?) to above-average talent, which is where Wake probably should be (two 50-75's with a few 75-150's sprinkled in). Many forget, but Odom had recruited more highly ranked players like Steve Rich, who ultimately transferred, and good 'ol Mahktar, who nearly got us put on probation. But Odom was doing a better job of assigning his priority targets and courting those coveted post guys who could make a difference for the type of style he preferred. Manning seems to be inching closer with these rangy, athletic swing men, but it won't be enough beyond 2018-19. Get crackin' Danny! Assuming you still have your job.

Good points. The other advantage of focusing on the 50 and beyond recruits is continuity. Much less chance of losing players after 1 or 2 years. Unless you can reload like a blue blood, this is a much better way to build a sustainable program.
 
Good points. The other advantage of focusing on the 50 and beyond recruits is continuity. Much less chance of losing players after 1 or 2 years. Unless you can reload like a blue blood, this is a much better way to build a sustainable program.

Good to see someone gleaning the over-arching point of the post, rather than nitpick a tongue in cheek comparison of Duncan and Collins (although you could argue that JC was well ahead of Duncan offensively as a sophomore). But, as usual, a certain someone missed the point of each coach finding a hidden gem early on in their tenures.

So instead he shifts to a different time frame and ignores all of the evidence I laid out to show how far behind the curve Manning has been relative to Odom. Maybe he'll be able to turn it around quickly (next year should be telling), but his team's defensive efficiency stats thus far leave more than a lot to be desired.

Odom even managed to improve the defense of the rag-tag bunch he inherited from Staak, and continued his defensive scheme effectiveness at South Carolina. As for Prosser, his best defensive team at Wake was worse (or barely better) than Odom's worst I think. As we all know, defense was an afterthought and we should have seen the Pittsnoggling coming.
 
BBall Recruiting Thread 2k19 - Hoard, Mucius, Lewis, and Wright sign NLIs!

Manning had a top 30(ish) recruit in each of the last two classes. Why is that a bad thing?

I mean, I understand your argument, and I have real concerns about the 2019 class... But it’s a little early to condemn his recruiting when Brown and Hoard (and Mucius, who fits the profile you are asking him to target) will be on the roster for next season.

My concern with Manning’s recruiting isn’t his focus on elite players. It’s that our disaster of a 2017-18 season will kill the recruiting momentum in 2019.

My concerns about Manning as a coach are a lot more about the lack of results on the floor and the valid criticism he gets for a lot of the in-game decisions.
 
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For all the recruiting addicts what would your dream classes be for 2019 and 2020? We could take up to 4 for 2019, and then depending on that class a total of 6 new guys by 2020. This is assuming no early attrition.

My 2019 class would be:
CG Justin Moore
Wing Wendell Moore
PF/C Omar Payne

Dream 2020:
CG Jaden Springer
PF Isaiah Todd
C Hunter Dickinson

Assuming a full 13 man roster, the team would have an average height of 6'7 and probably destroy everyone. I know its a dream, hence dream class. Given the current state of NCAA basketball, and if we were like NC State these two classes would probably cost us around $1.5-1.8 million dollars.
 
Also, I don’t think recruiting works like some of you are suggesting. It’s not like Manning looks at the rankings and starts to recruit based on that.

I imagine the staff leverages existing relationships with AAU and high school coaches and gets a sense of who might be receptive to the Wake Forest pitch.

You’d be silly to not go after the best players you think you can get.

*Disclaimer: I don’t know much about the ins and outs of recruiting.
 
Manning had a top 30(ish) recruit in each of the last two classes. Why is that a bad thing?

I mean, I understand your argument, and I have real concerns about the 2019 class... But it’s a little early to condemn his recruiting when Brown and Hoard (and Mucius, who fits the profile you are asking him to target) will be on the roster for next season.

My concern with Manning’s recruiting isn’t his focus on elite players. It’s that our disaster of a 2017-18 season will kill the recruiting momentum in 2019.

My concerns about Manning as a coach are a lot more about the lack of results on the floor and the valid criticism he gets for a lot of the in-game decisions.

I'm not necessarily *condemning* Danny's recruiting, but it's been quite the mixed bag and the results have been mixed as well thus far. Seems a bit more feast or famine rather than a slow, steady build with a better mix of talent and versatility, as opposed to what we're seeing with a few too many reaches outside the Top 175. I'm more concerned with the fact that 2016 and 2017 yielded maybe 3 players that will play significant minutes going forward, but as we know the early emphasis on transfers-in and unforseen attrition certainly created some gaps.

And like you said, this past season stalls momentum potentially and could make it hard for Manning to build on the strength of '18, which is important considering '17 is dangerously thin with only Brown and Sarr (who was a late get), after the 2016 class left a lot to be desired. Hopefully for Danny's sake, he can put together a solid class this fall and fill some holes we will have going forward.

Like you, I'm more concerned with the actual coaching and results on the floor, but when you combine those misgivings with a retrospective view of his seemingly mixed results on the recruiting trail, it just ramps up the doubt I have. We shall see, as it looks like Ronnie is counting on Danny to put it all together next year after hopefully bagging another Top 40 class for '19.
 
Good to see someone gleaning the over-arching point of the post, rather than nitpick a tongue in cheek comparison of Duncan and Collins (although you could argue that JC was well ahead of Duncan offensively as a sophomore). But, as usual, a certain someone missed the point of each coach finding a hidden gem early on in their tenures.

So instead he shifts to a different time frame and ignores all of the evidence I laid out to show how far behind the curve Manning has been relative to Odom. Maybe he'll be able to turn it around quickly (next year should be telling), but his team's defensive efficiency stats thus far leave more than a lot to be desired.

Odom even managed to improve the defense of the rag-tag bunch he inherited from Staak, and continued his defensive scheme effectiveness at South Carolina. As for Prosser, his best defensive team at Wake was worse (or barely better) than Odom's worst I think. As we all know, defense was an afterthought and we should have seen the Pittsnoggling coming.

And you would be an idiot. Duncan was a hidden gem because he was actually hidden from everyone due to a set of circumstances that will never repeat themselves.

And I got and responded to te overarching theme of your post. Landing guys in the top 50 is a better strategy than landing guys ranked 50-100. Pretty simple.
 
By the end of his soph year, Jerry West was already saying Tim Duncan should be the #1 pick in the NBA and would be a superstar. JC is a nice player, but in no way was he has good as Tim offensively as a soph.
 
Good to see someone gleaning the over-arching point of the post, rather than nitpick a tongue in cheek comparison of Duncan and Collins (although you could argue that JC was well ahead of Duncan offensively as a sophomore). But, as usual, a certain someone missed the point of each coach finding a hidden gem early on in their tenures.

So instead he shifts to a different time frame and ignores all of the evidence I laid out to show how far behind the curve Manning has been relative to Odom. Maybe he'll be able to turn it around quickly (next year should be telling), but his team's defensive efficiency stats thus far leave more than a lot to be desired.

Odom even managed to improve the defense of the rag-tag bunch he inherited from Staak, and continued his defensive scheme effectiveness at South Carolina. As for Prosser, his best defensive team at Wake was worse (or barely better) than Odom's worst I think. As we all know, defense was an afterthought and we should have seen the Pittsnoggling coming.



That was one of my few gripes about the teams that Skip coached. Had they been able to play better D, who knows.
 
That was one of my few gripes about the teams that Skip coached. Had they been able to play better D, who knows.

Skip is a guy that would have figured it out. Dino figured it out in his absence and would have still been on Skip's bench. Skip's O with Dino's D (it wasn't excellent, but it was serviceable) would have been awesome. Wake Forest basketball is still suffering from his untimely departure. RIP Skip.
 
Skip is a guy that would have figured it out. Dino figured it out in his absence and would have still been on Skip's bench. Skip's O with Dino's D (it wasn't excellent, but it was serviceable) would have been awesome. Wake Forest basketball is still suffering from his untimely departure. RIP Skip.

The way I remember it was Skip sent Dino and maybe one other coach to visit with Dick Bennett (Tony's father) to learn the pack line defense and it was Skip's plan to then begin implementing that defense. I think I am remembering that correctly.
 
The Packline wasn’t Skip’s idea. It was the solution Dino and Kelsey came up with to fix our defense after Skip
died. Xavier was running it at the time, so they went there in addition to Bennett at Washington State to study it.
 
And you would be an idiot. Duncan was a hidden gem because he was actually hidden from everyone due to a set of circumstances that will never repeat themselves.

And I got and responded to te overarching theme of your post. Landing guys in the top 50 is a better strategy than landing guys ranked 50-100. Pretty simple.

No shit, but again missing the point. No one expected either one to be drafted to the NBA as a sophomore, but both were on draft boards after their 2nd year of play. Obviously not an apples to apples comparison because of the rare circumstances surrounding Duncan, and his destroyed olympic sized pool. I'm very high on Collins' potential and think he could be a perennial All-Star at the NBA level, but he obviously is nowhere close to Duncan's class defensively...doubtful that he'll become that good on both ends. Anyhoo...

Sure it would be nice to land Top 50 players every year, but that doesn't mean Wake will be able to do it under Manning, or any other coach for that matter. He's got two classes in a row, but we'll see about this upcoming class. Previous Wake coaches seem to land their share, but it hasn't been every year, or even every other year, usually 3 or 4 over a 5-8 year period. And to land 1 or 2 every year? Never gonna happen. GDO had probably 3, maybe 4? Prosser had 5 total? 5 in 7/8 years seems pretty good. But ya still gotta play some D.

Pulling a larger share of the 50-100 or 125 seems like a much more realistic strategy for a school that does not historically nab a Top 50 players on a year to year basis. Not to mention other recruiting obstacles that large state unis don't necessarily have.

Fuck it though, I'm tired of arguing all of this. We both want the same thing, but I've let myself get sucked into this never-ending subjective debate because I mostly think you're a pain in the ass, who condescends all too often, foisting your very high opinion of your own opinions on this board community in the most niggling and nit-picky way. You make a lot of good arguments and I understand your viewpoint that Manning was dealt the shittiest hand possible so he should get more latitude for pulling this program out of the abyss, but you seem to totally thumb your nose at the idea of coaching actually making a difference...if that can't be debated, we might as well not even have a message board. So I'm not going to spend much more time worrying about it till we see some recruiting commitments in the fall. In the future, perhaps cherry-pick a little less and just give us your viewpoint in a cogent, non-adversarial manner, and then move the fuck on.

Good luck Danny!! I hope you can't right the ship and everyone is smoking' Pall Malls and Camels at the Joel to honor Smokin' Danny Manning!! But don't be a stubborn fanny _anny and learn how to coach some damn defense...an effective match up zone would be nice.

But if Jaylen (and to a degree Chaundee) completely change the landscape of Wake BB, as well as the trajectory of Danny's coaching career, I will gladly come back here and eat a hefty plate of crow. However, I think it's going to take more than those two players next year and in 2019, and I don't think Manning can afford another lackluster recruiting class this fall.
 
Skip is a guy that would have figured it out. Dino figured it out in his absence and would have still been on Skip's bench. Skip's O with Dino's D (it wasn't excellent, but it was serviceable) would have been awesome. Wake Forest basketball is still suffering from his untimely departure. RIP Skip.

I like to believe that as well, and I do think Skip would have addressed the problem. But to play devil's advocate, his teams at Xavier weren't exactly world beaters playing D. Think he had one Top 75 defensive squad when David West was a junior, or was it his soph campaign? Skip loved him some offense, and I loved watching a well-oiled Prosser offensively talented team. Perhaps all it would have taken would have been a few seasons in the 60-75 range to get that deep run or two in NCAAT.
 
I like to believe that as well, and I do think Skip would have addressed the problem. But to play devil's advocate, his teams at Xavier weren't exactly world beaters playing D. Think he had one Top 75 defensive squad when David West was a junior, or was it his soph campaign? Skip loved him some offense, and I loved watching a well-oiled Prosser offensively talented team. Perhaps all it would have taken would have been a few seasons in the 60-75 range to get that deep run or two in NCAAT.
Yeah, but he was coming off two bad seasons at Wake. He knew something needed to change.
 
If you look at that 2011 - 2012 roster, Chase was the third or fourth best guy at 1,2 and 3. So he got those minutes almost by default. 5+6+15 backup minutes = 26. Who you picking between Chase Fischer, Anthony Fields, Spence Jennings, Brooks Godwin?

CJ Harris and Tony Chenault were playing about as many minutes as their legs could handle. Three guards instead of Nikita Mescheriakov.

Fischer was good enough to play. He just waited until he was at BYU to show it during actual games.
 
By the end of his soph year, Jerry West was already saying Tim Duncan should be the #1 pick in the NBA and would be a superstar. JC is a nice player, but in no way was he has good as Tim offensively as a soph.

Duncan was pretty limited offensively as a Sophomore. People loved his D/shot blocking, rebounding, passing out of the post, and developing but raw offensive game.
 
In the next 24 months, the recruiting world is about to have a shake up due to the FBi investigation fallout, the NBA's decision on what to do with one-and-done players (I expect a change), and the retirement of half a dozen legendary coaches.

I don't expect the change to reflect any sort of return to "the good old days." Football has a half dozen football factories prepping kids for the NFL. That will hold true in college basketball. But what will that mean and what will those schools be. We aren't going to be one of those schools, nor should we strive to be one. Duke likely won't either. If the rule will be two years in college or none, that hurts Duke. Duke works for a kid uninterested in school for only one year. Duke will have to return to Laettner, Grant Hill style recruiting. Honestly, their fanbase will probably be happy with this. I can barely cheer against the current Duke squad. Because it has no resemblance to a Duke team you can cheer for or against.

Anyway, the ideal should be to position ourselves to be ready now/then with a recruiting philosophy ready for the changes. I have been underwhelmed by Manning as the leader of program. Honestly, if we are going to struggle like this in down years, I'd rather have a young Childress with an old Odom by his side, but that said, I do think his recruiting approach last year and this year is pitch perfect. Hoard, Mucius, Brown, and Sarr seem like 2-4 year players, depending on how they develop. And I like getting a Wright to be a 4-year player.

More please.

In hindsight, I think Manning wishes he would have talked Collins into staying another year - for the program. I honestly don't think it would have done him much good as far as draft positioning. It might not have been the best thing for Moore or Craw. It was, it seems, the right thing for Collins though. If we had leveraged it into another 4/5 player with NBA potential it makes more sense. I guess Sarr committed to us partially because Collins left.
 
No shit, but again missing the point. No one expected either one to be drafted to the NBA as a sophomore, but both were on draft boards after their 2nd year of play. Obviously not an apples to apples comparison because of the rare circumstances surrounding Duncan, and his destroyed olympic sized pool. I'm very high on Collins' potential and think he could be a perennial All-Star at the NBA level, but he obviously is nowhere close to Duncan's class defensively...doubtful that he'll become that good on both ends. Anyhoo...

Sure it would be nice to land Top 50 players every year, but that doesn't mean Wake will be able to do it under Manning, or any other coach for that matter. He's got two classes in a row, but we'll see about this upcoming class. Previous Wake coaches seem to land their share, but it hasn't been every year, or even every other year, usually 3 or 4 over a 5-8 year period. And to land 1 or 2 every year? Never gonna happen. GDO had probably 3, maybe 4? Prosser had 5 total? 5 in 7/8 years seems pretty good. But ya still gotta play some D.

Pulling a larger share of the 50-100 or 125 seems like a much more realistic strategy for a school that does not historically nab a Top 50 players on a year to year basis. Not to mention other recruiting obstacles that large state unis don't necessarily have.

Fuck it though, I'm tired of arguing all of this. We both want the same thing, but I've let myself get sucked into this never-ending subjective debate because I mostly think you're a pain in the ass, who condescends all too often, foisting your very high opinion of your own opinions on this board community in the most niggling and nit-picky way. You make a lot of good arguments and I understand your viewpoint that Manning was dealt the shittiest hand possible so he should get more latitude for pulling this program out of the abyss, but you seem to totally thumb your nose at the idea of coaching actually making a difference...if that can't be debated, we might as well not even have a message board. So I'm not going to spend much more time worrying about it till we see some recruiting commitments in the fall. In the future, perhaps cherry-pick a little less and just give us your viewpoint in a cogent, non-adversarial manner, and then move the fuck on.

Good luck Danny!! I hope you can't right the ship and everyone is smoking' Pall Malls and Camels at the Joel to honor Smokin' Danny Manning!! But don't be a stubborn fanny _anny and learn how to coach some damn defense...an effective match up zone would be nice.

But if Jaylen (and to a degree Chaundee) completely change the landscape of Wake BB, as well as the trajectory of Danny's coaching career, I will gladly come back here and eat a hefty plate of crow. However, I think it's going to take more than those two players next year and in 2019, and I don't think Manning can afford another lackluster recruiting class this fall.

This is fantastic. I had to look up what niggling means.
 
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