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Bible discussion thread

Faith in God or the abstract spiritual does little to nothing for me. But I really enjoy the allegory of only understanding a portion of the world around us. Language, perception, cognition, and memory are all roadblocks in the path towards true understanding, but they're also the tools we have. It's an imperfect and incomplete existence but it's pretty great.
 
...the serious answer, at least for me, is that this is kind of the epitome of faith. The whole idea of faith is that you DON'T know, but you have the wholehearted belief that you're acting in accordance with something greater than yourself.

Yes, belief in a greater and higher power.
 
If one actually watches this and truly listens, it is a very powerful message. May not change your life. But, it may force you to think a little deeper when you lie down and reflect on the day.





 
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Faith in God or the abstract spiritual does little to nothing for me. But I really enjoy the allegory of only understanding a portion of the world around us. Language, perception, cognition, and memory are all roadblocks in the path towards true understanding, but they're also the tools we have. It's an imperfect and incomplete existence but it's pretty great.

oh now i understand completely. like the allegory of the cave. i hadn't thought about faith from the paridigm of plato's allegory. now that you point that out that is interesting. for some reason it doesn't make religion more appealing to either of us though. perhaps because it's not parsimonious.

it does seem to suggest that science will never be able to 100% disprove religion, but then again scientists have always known that. As you obviously realize, science makes only two assumptions: that the ultimate mechanics of the universe are knowable, and that our senses can be relied on to discern those mechanics. there are definitely some reasons to question both assumptions. the uncertainty principal (and to a lesser extent chaos theory) comes to mind for the former assumption.

this thread is really academic so i don't expect many people will participate.
 
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Ezekiel 23:19-20 (NIV)
19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of stallions.

This verse really speaks to me.


Isn't envy one of the seven deadly sins?
 
"Our human perception of the world around us really is somewhat of an illusion anyway, as many scientific discoveries have since pointed out,"

Sounds like townie got the good shit this week.....
 
If one actually watches this and truly listens, it is a very powerful message. May not change your life. But, it may force you to think a little deeper when you lie down and reflect on the day.







i really don't want to poison m y mind with 45mins of billy graham, can u just give me his thesis or a short summary?
 
Kings 2:23
Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you bald head! Go up, you bald head!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
 
"Our human perception of the world around us really is somewhat of an illusion anyway, as many scientific discoveries have since pointed out,"

Sounds like townie got the good shit this week.....

Psalms 104:14

He maketh the grass to grow for cattle, and herb for the use of man
 
Kings 2:23
Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you bald head! Go up, you bald head!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

wow. I have literally missed this verse for my entire life....then this morning at church this is what the sermon was about. Then I come here and see you and Townie have both posted this little snippet? WO.
 
How did the sermon discuss it? Like don't fuck with the Jesus or what?
 
God doesn't dig little shits fucking with bald headed men. That's how it should be.
 
I certainly get that it seems like a "cop out," to say that we can't understand it all, but that is just simply how it is. For centuries, science has said the same thing about certain things. We've learned some things that were once unknowable, but I think we see the same thing happening in theology. The issue with theology vs science is that science (generally) has certain truths that 99% of scientists can get on board with. For example, I'm not really aware of a segment of the scientific community that works to discredit Newton's laws or thinks they're bogus. However, I'd suggest that in the 20th century, through the lens of liberation theology, we perhaps cleaned off some of the dirt on that glass which we see through. But it's not an open and shut case like the "discovery" of dark matter, not everyone will agree with it. So it seems like theology makes no progress, when in actuality, there is some being made.

To your point though, there are some passages that (in my m mind) that point towards perhaps a clearer picture. These passages include Col 1:19, 1 John 1:2 (or really several places in the Johannine epistles), John 1:14, just to name a few. For Christians, Jesus is not a dark mirror/glass, he is the view of God. The problem really that many, many Christians have forgotten that and put more emphasis on the Bible than they do Jesus. The Bible is the word (lower case) of God, Jesus is the Word (capital) of God. When we mix those two, we do certainly see things more darkly. The Bible is a flawed, dated, human-written text. I'd claim that it was divinely inspired, but it's still not perfect. I like to think that my sermons are also divinely inspired, as I prayerfully study, reflect, write, and edit them. But are they perfect, of course not! The Bible is still a source for theology/inspiration/insight, but it is NOT the of Christianity- Jesus is.

Well said Rev. This is how I feel when I get into discussions about the Bible with others.
 
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How did the sermon discuss it? Like don't fuck with the Jesus or what?

More or less. He commented that while God is good, God is not safe. God repeatedly promises wrath to those who defy Him, which is what these teenaged hoodlums were doing. "Bear" in mind that mauling is not necessarily "killing".

He also made the point that we see this and perceive a lack of grace - when I feel pretty certain that if one of the youths had apologized to God and stopped mocking Him, the youth would have been spared. God is very merciful to those of us who ask forgiveness, but if you're outside that you take a chance that wrath better fits His plans.
 
Old Testament God is so vengeful/full of spite.

He makes man and gives him free will to fail and when he does, he punishes him. Then he creates this deuteronomistic covenant with Israel promising them Canaan if they stay faithful and when they fail, he punishes them. People try to build a tower to see them and he destroys it and confuses everyone with a divide in language.

The dichotomy between grace or mercy and wrathful punishment is pretty fascinating. He knows well the futurebut still gets furious at things that happen. There are fewer analogs iI've found to this kind of monotheistic empath/punisher in other religion. Most religionstend to have this range of emotions spread across several gods.
 
God repeatedly promises wrath to those who defy Him...God is very merciful to those of us who ask forgiveness, but if you're outside that you take a chance that wrath better fits His plans.

This is really flawed and problematic theology. For one, that simply isn't the way the world works. And I know some would answer "well, we just don't always know how God evens the scales," which makes God into an arbitrary and capricious god that is no different from Baal or any of the local deities of the ANE (ancient Near East). It also turns God into a puppet master and introduces a whole host of issues related to theodicy. While I appreciate the fact that it's a (somewhat) humorous story, it likely isn't based in historical truth (see earlier posts), so to apply a literal meaning to a legend is problematic.

What this passage points towards is the respect due a man of God- namely Elisha. Some scholars also suggest that by calling him "baldly," they are insinuating that he's not nearly the prophet that Elijah was, who was known for being hairy. So they're saying- "you're a baldy, not nearly as good as Elijah." One sermon direction might be to discuss what cuts us to our core, where are our short fuses, or using the work of Edwin Friedman, to talk about self-differentiation and importance of continuing Godly work, despite the naysayers.

This narrative happens right after Elisha has received the mantle from Elijah, so it is a confirming that God's power/prophecy indeed resides in Elisha as it did in Elijah. So one sermon direction could talk about that, the idea of continuing prophecy, or the importance of continuing the good work of previous generations.

And the lesson from the bears is that to insult a man (or woman) of God/a prophet is to insult God directly. So then a sermon could lead into a whole set of social-justice orientated directions.

Really not trying to bash a fellow preacher, especially without having actually heard the sermon, but with that disclaimer in mind, saying that this passage is about God's justice, or the possibility for mercy and forgiveness just isn't true to the text. Now if the preacher preached on one of the previously mentioned ideas, and then concluded with an "And I wonder what would have happened if a youth apologized..." and then tied it to another reading that speaks directly about mercy, then that could work as an aside, but it would be pure speculation and not rooted in the text of 2 Kings 2.
 
Old Testament God is so vengeful/full of spite.

He makes man and gives him free will to fail and when he does, he punishes him. Then he creates this deuteronomistic covenant with Israel promising them Canaan if they stay faithful and when they fail, he punishes them. People try to build a tower to see them and he destroys it and confuses everyone with a divide in language.

The dichotomy between grace or mercy and wrathful punishment is pretty fascinating. He knows well the futurebut still gets furious at things that happen. There are fewer analogs iI've found to this kind of monotheistic empath/punisher in other religion. Most religionstend to have this range of emotions spread across several gods.

The thing to keep in mind is that the OT (and NT, but in a different way) is a revisionist and theological interpretation of history.
 
The thing to keep in mind is that the OT (and NT, but in a different way) is a revisionist and theological interpretation of history.

Well yea, that's how all history books are written, right? This one just happens to have magic in it too.
 
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