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Bible discussion thread

It was the last thing you said - insulting God's prophet is insulting God. The part you quoted was my additional thoughts on what was said but I see your point.
 
Well yea, that's how all history books are written, right? This one just happens to have magic in it too.

I wouldn't say all- at least for the theological part, but revisionist, yea. And magic- touche. But really, it depends on how you define a miracle. Is it in the cause of the event, or the interpretation of it? I'd argue (like a good Anglican) that it's somewhere between the two.
 
It was the last thing you said - insulting God's prophet is insulting God. The part you quoted was my additional thoughts on what was said but I see your point.

Ah, got ya. And I wasn't trying to say that you're wrong by thinking that, just that this text isn't the best one to use to get there, though anytime we speak of mercy/wrath there are going to be issues of theodicy to work through, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, just something to be aware of.
 
Theodicy doesn't really bother me so much. I tend to think that Jesus could have done more good living a full 75 years and then being a redemptive sacrifice to humankind, instead of just 33 give or take. When you take a look at some of his miracles: healing the sick, feeding the hungry, raising the dead, driving out demons, driving demons into pigs, the weird one with the fig tree, it seems to me that winning the hearts and minds of humans was a great deed in his sacrifice on the cross, but couldn't he just as well accomplished further evangelism by telling more people to be fishers of men, by curing the world of leprosy, by giving food to the hungry, etc?

I guess at this point, I'm working my own kind of revisionist history, since it happened like it happened, and he was betrayed and crucified. But that heartbreaking moment where he's on the cross pleading with God, seems to me like things could have gone better for everyone if God had just used that as another teaching moment, smote all the betrayers, and let Jesus do his thing for another 40 years. I suppose the sacrifice wouldn't have been so great then, but that's where theodicy creeps in for me. I get that it was a great sacrifice to give up your only son to redeem the sins of the world, but you totally allowed that sin and death into the world in the first place.
 
Theodicy doesn't really bother me so much. I tend to think that Jesus could have done more good living a full 75 years and then being a redemptive sacrifice to humankind, instead of just 33 give or take. When you take a look at some of his miracles: healing the sick, feeding the hungry, raising the dead, driving out demons, driving demons into pigs, the weird one with the fig tree, it seems to me that winning the hearts and minds of humans was a great deed in his sacrifice on the cross, but couldn't he just as well accomplished further evangelism by telling more people to be fishers of men, by curing the world of leprosy, by giving food to the hungry, etc?

I guess at this point, I'm working my own kind of revisionist history, since it happened like it happened, and he was betrayed and crucified. But that heartbreaking moment where he's on the cross pleading with God, seems to me like things could have gone better for everyone if God had just used that as another teaching moment, smote all the betrayers, and let Jesus do his thing for another 40 years. I suppose the sacrifice wouldn't have been so great then, but that's where theodicy creeps in for me. I get that it was a great sacrifice to give up your only son to redeem the sins of the world, but you totally allowed that sin and death into the world in the first place.

I really do view participation in threads like this as part of my ministry, but I'm also sitting in my office, not doing the work that I'm paid to do when I'm surfing the boards (like most of us on here). So that being said, can't give this a full-length response now. But in summary, I'd point to St. Augustine who said "without God, we cannot; without us, God will not."

Yes, God could have "given" Jesus 40 more years. But again, that really assume that God is a sort of puppet master, which I'm not sure that God is. I believe in miracles, but not in the sort of "hand of God against the forces of nature and free will" way that many people do. Borg and Crossan have a great book called The Last Week in which they explore the events of Holy Week. And one of their major points is that Jesus died not because he needed to die as a means of sacrificial atonement for our sins, but because he was upsetting the power and oppression systems of Rome, and especially of the Temple power structure. And if you don't, as I do not, think that God is the sort of god who swoops in to save the day, then there was no other way for this to play out. I think it's telling that it only took Jesus (roughly) 3 years of doing ministry and proclaiming the Kingdom of God before he pissed off enough people to get him killed, no way he would have survived 40 more.

But there is something in leaving the ministry to us. God in Jesus wasn't a superman figure from planet Krypton (or heaven) to fix our problems for us. It was, in part, as St. Paul writes, to show us "a still more excellent way."
 
"St. Paul writes, to show us "a still more excellent way." -Is St. Paul Keanu Reeve's ancestor?
 
The unevenness of God's revelation appears to be more than a little baffling. I mean why did Jesus arrive at the time and place that he did? Why was it necessary for God to share all the information necessary for salvation of the entire human race at that particular time and place? What was so special about the eastern end of the Mediterranean 2,000 years ago? Why particularly there and then?
 
The unevenness of God's revelation appears to be more than a little baffling. I mean why did Jesus arrive at the time and place that he did? Why was it necessary for God to share all the information necessary for salvation of the entire human race at that particular time and place? What was so special about the eastern end of the Mediterranean 2,000 years ago? Why particularly there and then?

The time was ripe? Honestly, that's the sort of question without an answer, because you're essentially asking to know God's thought process. That being said, there was an early church heresy (which weren't really that bad. For the most part, heretics were just the losers in the earliest theological debates. It would be as if the "losers" on this thread were exiled.) known as Adoptionism that suggested that Jesus was adopted as God's Son at his baptism. So they might argue that Jesus wasn't "sent" at any specific time, but rather, God anointed/called/ordained Jesus for this ministry since he was the right person for the job in the right cultural context. Not sure that I'd agree with it, just throwing that out there. Many Christians refuted this, which is clearly seen in John's (gospel) prologue "in the beginning was the word (logos)..."

You say "to share all the information necessary for salvation of the entire human race..." I wouldn't agree with that. The reason why the Holy Spirit was given was because there was more work to be done.
 
More or less. He commented that while God is good, God is not safe. God repeatedly promises wrath to those who defy Him, which is what these teenaged hoodlums were doing. "Bear" in mind that mauling is not necessarily "killing".

He also made the point that we see this and perceive a lack of grace - when I feel pretty certain that if one of the youths had apologized to God and stopped mocking Him, the youth would have been spared. God is very merciful to those of us who ask forgiveness, but if you're outside that you take a chance that wrath better fits His plans.

we'll if i'm gonna get mauled by a bear at the direction of god i would hope i die from it. you don't wanna end up like that lady who had a monkey destroy her face yet she ended up living.
 
The time was ripe? Honestly, that's the sort of question without an answer, because you're essentially asking to know God's thought process. That being said, there was an early church heresy (which weren't really that bad. For the most part, heretics were just the losers in the earliest theological debates. It would be as if the "losers" on this thread were exiled.) known as Adoptionism that suggested that Jesus was adopted as God's Son at his baptism. So they might argue that Jesus wasn't "sent" at any specific time, but rather, God anointed/called/ordained Jesus for this ministry since he was the right person for the job in the right cultural context. Not sure that I'd agree with it, just throwing that out there. Many Christians refuted this, which is clearly seen in John's (gospel) prologue "in the beginning was the word (logos)..."

You say "to share all the information necessary for salvation of the entire human race..." I wouldn't agree with that. The reason why the Holy Spirit was given was because there was more work to be done.

wasn't it also refuted with the whole story of jesus' birth and the immaculate conception?
 
wasn't it also refuted with the whole story of jesus' birth and the immaculate conception?

The Immaculate Conception actually refers to Mary's conception, not Jesus', and was not defined until the 1850s. Furthermore, the use of the phrase "born of a virgin," is the result of mistranslation of Isaiah's Hebrew into Matthew's Greek. The early Church would have understood this more easily than we do. For a fuller discussion of this, see Borg and Crossan's The First Christmas.

Furthermore, there is no birth narrative in Mark, John, or any Pauline writings, and Matthew's and Luke's versions differ so greatly that it is not hard to extrapolate they the birth narratives are later additions to the story of Jesus.

ETA- So John is making a highly theological argument for the Christology of Jesus as the eternal word as opposed to a "mere" prophet or the argument of adoptionism.
 
The Immaculate Conception actually refers to Mary's conception, not Jesus', and was not defined until the 1850s. Furthermore, the use of the phrase "born of a virgin," is the result of mistranslation of Isaiah's Hebrew into Matthew's Greek. The early Church would have understood this more easily than we do. For a fuller discussion of this, see Borg and Crossan's The First Christmas.

Furthermore, there is no birth narrative in Mark, John, or any Pauline writings, and Matthew's and Luke's versions differ so greatly that it is not hard to extrapolate they the birth narratives are later additions to the story of Jesus.

ETA- So John is making a highly theological argument for the Christology of Jesus as the eternal word as opposed to a "mere" prophet or the argument of adoptionism.

How do you account for such variety?
 
How do you account for such variety?

Mark, John, and Paul didn't really care about the birth because it didn't advance their point. And that is important to remember, the gospels were written for particular communities and had to fit with their theologies. So Mark sees Jesus as a healer and vanquisher of evil, the birth narrative doesn't really advance that point. But Luke sees Jesus more as the new Elijah, in line with OT prophecies, so the birth narrative does indeed matter in that context. John sees Jesus as one with the Father, so he has a highly developed Christology that begins with a birth narrative on the cosmic scale. That Borg and Crossan book is quite good if you want a short and easy to read into into the development of the birth narratives.
 
So they're being more interpretive/allegorical to fit their messages rather than trying to transcribe oral histories?
 
So they're being more interpretive/allegorical to fit their messages rather than trying to transcribe oral histories?

Absolutely. Sometimes you can even read different oral traditions in the text, showing that they knew that they had to incorporate the "givens" that everyone expected in the story, but don't really fit with the theology they're trying to espouse.

One place this is seen are in the resurrection narratives. Some suggest that the earliest Christian understanding of what happening after/during/through Good Friday wasn't that Jesus was raised from the dead, but rather of Exaltation, that Jesus was seated at the right hand of the Father was more important than his resurrection. This can be seen in Mark and Paul's earliest letters. And in Matthew, you can see that he's coming from the idea of Exaltation being the most important part, but then slips into Resurrection theology a few places and then retreats back into Exaltation, because at his later date of writing, there are certain elements that need to be included. The body of Jesus is one clear example. Mark makes no mention of a body, because it doesn't matter in Exaltation theology.
 
reverend, i'm curious, how do you know so much about the bible and language and the ulterior motives of the writers of the gospels (and, by extension, about the period and society within which they were written), but you do not extrapolate this knowledge to reach the conclusion that it's all likely BS?

Old Testament God is so vengeful/full of spite.

He makes man and gives him free will to fail and when he does, he punishes him. Then he creates this deuteronomistic covenant with Israel promising them Canaan if they stay faithful and when they fail, he punishes them. People try to build a tower to see them and he destroys it and confuses everyone with a divide in language.

The dichotomy between grace or mercy and wrathful punishment is pretty fascinating. He knows well the futurebut still gets furious at things that happen. There are fewer analogs iI've found to this kind of monotheistic empath/punisher in other religion. Most religionstend to have this range of emotions spread across several gods.

it is fascinating. I think it was simply an unavoidable consequence of a monotheistic religion. they consolidated the universe into one god, but realized in order to explain so much earthly suffering the only explanation is that god is an angry deity. and you touch on another interesting dichotomy when you reference that he knows the future. how do people of faith reconcile the free will of humans vs god knowing everything that's going to happen? this has always baffled me.
 
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reverend, i'm curious, how do you know so much about the bible and language and the ulterior motives of the writers of the gospels (and, by extension, about the period and society within which they were written), but you do not extrapolate this knowledge to reach the conclusion that it's all likely BS?



it is fascinating. I think it was simply an unavoidable consequence of a monotheistic religion. they consolidated the universe into one god, but realized in order to explain so much earthly suffering the only explanation is that god is an angry deity. and you touch on another interesting dichotomy when you reference that he knows the future. how do people of faith reconcile the free will of humans vs god knowing everything that's going to happen? this has always baffled me.

So to your first point- I wouldn't say that I'm 100% certain that I know what was going on in their heads, but I've read a lot of people who are much more knowledgeable than I am on these topics. But consider this sort of what-if scenario. What if In 1,000 years after some sort of major event in which our current societies are destroyed, someone found Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. They'd be able to read something of the context by the content of the document. And then suppose they found the Constitution a few years later, and that would help to fill in some gaps. And then they found an academic paper on the Address from the 1970s, that would give them more insight.

Essentially, this is what religious scholars do. We have various manuscripts of the Bible (and the slight differences between them can be telling), we have some religious literature from the surrounding regions from roughly the same time, we have some archeology which gives us insight into what daily life must have been like, we have early letters (200s) from Bishops writing about some of these issues.

I wouldn't say they're BS at all. Imagine that the Gettysburg Address were given, but we didn't have Lincoln's manuscript and they decided not to make it publicly available (as the Bible wasn't written down for a generation after the events of the NT took place). So then perhaps a northern decided they should write a newspaper article about the speech, and a southern did the same, and a visiting Englishman as well, and how about an African slave. They'd be telling the same story, but with a different mindset and they'd want their audiences to hear different parts of the story. Perhaps they'd leave something out if it didn't help with their agenda. Perhaps they'd add other stories or sayings of Lincoln that helped their point. None of that detracts from the actual Address. And by comparing the different versions, we learn something about a fuller picture of the actual Address, but also what was important in these different communities.

I'm mostly here speaking of the NT and the gospels specifically, but I think the analogy somewhat fits. The other piece, is that for Christians who properly understand the place of the Bible and Scripture, is that it points towards Jesus. In the same way that no one argues "The Gettysburg Address forever changed the course of American history" (at least, it doesn't really make sense to say the document changed history, but rather, the author did), but plenty of people would argue that "Lincoln is the greatest president this nation has ever known." The same should be said of the Bible- it points us towards something bigger than itself. But unfortunately, sola scriptura has been misunderstood and misapplied.

And furthermore, Christians believe that Jesus/God is known through prayer, other people, nature, etc., not just through Scripture. So even if the Bible is flawed and has some bs in it, that's not a deal breaker for me (but for many Evangelical Christians, it is, that is why they dig their heels in so deeply when it comes to issues of "Biblical marriage," or whatever the issue de jour is.).

And to your second question- I don't know that I'd argue that God knows the future, and many theologians say the same. Some would say God is outside of time, and therefore past/present/future are constructs that only exist from our vantage point, but they aren't "real." Others though would say that God, by being God, chose to be what we (Christians) think of as God. So God could have been Zeus-like or whatever, but God chose to be God. And in doing so, God took on some limits/definitions, and one of those is that God cannot know what has not happened, because it hasn't happened yet. It's sort of like asking can God create a rock so large that God couldn't push it up a hill? Or can God create a square-circle? Those questions are surd. They make no rationale sense and have no answer. Some would argue that asking, can God know what has not yet happened? is the same sort of question. That being said, if we understand omniscience not as knowing the future, but knowing all that is possible to be known, we have an understanding of omniscience that works better. If God knows all the laws of physics, and the hearts/minds of every living thing, and everything that happened in the past, and the current state of all things, God could reasonably predict the future with stunning accuracy, but God still could be surprised, leaving free-agency soundly intact.

And I realize this will seem like a cop-out to some, but recently retired UNC prof Marilyn McCord Adams is known for reminding students that "God is very, very big, and we are very, very small." It would be as if a goldfish tried to make sense of our actions and motivations. Again, I realize that might not be an agreeable argument to all, but if we can at least agree (whether you believe it or not) that we're speaking about the proposition of the being/entity/thing that created all that is and ever shall be, and (at least in the Abrahamic faiths) and still active in some sense, then the idea that there are simply limits to our understanding has to be accepted. Doesn't mean we can't use our God-given brains and the gifts of logic/reason, but let's not make our full understanding into an idol.

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thanks for taking the time to give me such an in-depth explanation of your thought process(es). your analogy is fitting, and insightful, as basically you do exactly what professional historians and archaeologists do..synthesize conflicting accounts in an attempt to form a more accurate narrative.

for a lot of reasons I don't much care for religion in general, but i am happy to learn that people like you are at the pulpit. i've always been impressed by people who truly live what they profess to believe, whether i agree with those beliefs or not.
 
but i am happy to learn that people like you are at the pulpit. i've always been impressed by people who truly live what they profess to believe, whether i agree with those beliefs or not.

Thanks, I can't tell you how much of a compliment that is. My lament is that so many Christians, and especially "leaders," are unwilling to consider their faith/views with logic/reason instead of emotion/fear/closed-mindedness. I'm not saying that I've got it figured out and that my conclusions are the right ones, but I think they are faithful (in the fullest sense of that word). And if we had more faithful Christians, then Church wouldn't be such a turn-off, more people would at least be open to it, experience the transformative and redeeming power and love of God, and we'd be a lot closer to realizing the prayer "thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven." That is my hope and dream, and why I take my ministry so seriously, because it's not even about life and death, it's bigger than that.


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