CBSSports.com Top 100 College Bball Players

[myDeaconmyhand]

Please preach to me about Jimmer Fredette. Fredette was 10-25, 11-23, and 11-29 in the tournament with 13 turnovers. The guy was a royal chucker of the highest order who made his name playing against teams like Portland and Colorado State. Kyrie Irving is certainly a great player, but he barely even played last year, so I don't know why you're even bringing him up. JaJuan Johnson was great, but he couldn't do anything as a Senior that Sullinger couldn't do as a Freshman. Derrick Williams was another great senior, but Terrance Jones and Harrison Barnes had better freshman years than he did, yet you oddly want to overlook their accomplishments.

 

[KanhojiAngre]

Please preach to me about Jimmer Fredette. Fredette was 10-25, 11-23, and 11-29 in the tournament with 13 turnovers. The guy was a royal chucker of the highest order who made his name playing against teams like Portland and Colorado State. Kyrie Irving is certainly a great player, but he barely even played last year, so I don't know why you're even bringing him up. JaJuan Johnson was great, but he couldn't do anything as a Senior that Sullinger couldn't do as a Freshman. Derrick Williams was another great senior, but Terrance Jones and Harrison Barnes had better freshman years than he did, yet you oddly want to overlook their accomplishments.

If shooting the ball is your team's best chance, then you should shoot the ball. If a good team had Fredette, they'd have gone to the Final Four. If someone like Arizona had him, they'd have cut nylon.

Perhaps you've forgotten that BYU's 2nd best player got DQed midway through the year. Jimmer scored 30 in the MWC championship game. The rest of the team scored 24.

Jimmer scored over 20 in every game but one that he played 30+ min in (read: not a blowout). 20 is more than Barnes averaged, and Fredette still shot a better percentage.

Derrick Williams was a senior in your own mind, the same mind that put Barnes #2 in the country I guess -- that is to say, a very stupid mind. I brought up Kyrie Irving because he was in fact a college basketball player last year, and one of the top 2-4 when healthy.

LOL at Jones and Barnes having a better freshman year than Williams. LOL indeed. He had about the same points and rebs as Barnes, only shot about 15% better while getting doubled and tripled every game because Arizona was a hot mess his FR year. So yeah, close, I guess. lol. Jones I'm not even wasting time on because his behavior and effort undo whatever good he might have done with his skills. No coincidence that they got better as his role decreased.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

How many other players could have averaged that many points or more, had they shot the ball that much? Too many to name. Just the same, Harrison Barnes obviously didn't need to shoot that much (or even half that much) for his team to win, so the scoring comparisons are worthless.

The most talented players in college basketball are the "one and dones" and luckily, many of the best one and done players from last season stayed. This year's freshman class has even more talent at the top. It's almost unanimous that this season will have more talent top to bottom, and more star-power than any season in recent history. There's no need to argue it further.

 

[Strickland33]

Ashton Gibbs is a one-trick pony but he's really good at that one trick, I will grant. Compare his numbers to #60 rated Doron Lamb on the draftxpress page linked (which I agree is useful, but you have to consider that no one plays 40 minutes and most don't come close).

If you look at per 40 pace adjusted, WVU's Casey Mitchell was one of the leading scorers in major college basketball last year too. So not buying this Thomas Robinson stuff just yet. Robinson's gonna have to cut back on his fouls, which will probably also cut back on his rebounding, if he's going to be a starter this year. So we'll see I guess. But for such a spectulative pick to be rated as high as he is, again, indicates weakness. I'd put a chip on Travis Relaford to be KU's leading scorer considering the odds I'd get.

The point isn't that anybody plays 40 minutes, but if you adjust stats over 40 minutes and for pace, then you can tell roughly how productive a player would be in a neutral system, relative to other players. That's the stat.

Casey Mitchell was a very productive player on an overachieving basketball team. That's what the stat proves. Furthermore, if you notice that he shot well below 50% from 2FG, then you know that he was hardly efficient. Thus, what is revealed is that yes, Casey Mitchell was absurdly productive on a slow paced team in limited minutes. The reasons for that are not explained by the stat, but the stat does say that he would have gone nuts playing for VMI. Not sure what your point is, though.

I think Thomas Robinson is better than Jared Sullinger right now. If Thomas Robinson drops 16 and 12 for KU next season, which I'd put good money on happening, then he'll probably be a top-10 college player. If he goes for 19 and 16, then, well, the rest is history.

Finally, how does cutting down on fouls affect your rebounding? I'd bite and post a ton of examples of how this is not the case, but I'm not going to. You can do that work if you'd like to redeem yourself on this one.

 

[KanhojiAngre]

How many other players could have averaged that many points or more, had they shot the ball that much? Too many to name. Just the same, Harrison Barnes obviously didn't need to shoot that much (or even half that much) for his team to win, so the scoring comparisons are worthless.

The most talented players in college basketball are the "one and dones" and luckily, many of the best one and done players from last season stayed. This year's freshman class has even more talent at the top. It's almost unanimous that this season will have more talent top to bottom, and more star-power than any season in recent history. There's no need to argue it further.

Wow...just wow. Barnes didn't shoot as much and still didn't shoot as good a percentage as Fredette did shooting a ton of shots.

Fredette was simply one of the best offensive basketball players that has been in the college game in the last decade. Stephen Curry was about as good. Kevin Durant was probably a little better (talking college only remember), and Adam Morrison and JJ Redick were outstanding and Michael Beasley had a terrific 1 year. That's pretty much it. Probably the best comparison is Curry or Morrison in terms of what they did on offense.

 

[KanhojiAngre]

The point isn't that anybody plays 40 minutes, but if you adjust stats over 40 minutes and for pace, then you can tell roughly how productive a player would be in a neutral system, relative to other players. That's the stat.

Well, it ignores other issues. Like what good is it to know how someone woudl do over 40 minutes if they commit too many fouls to play even 30?

Casey Mitchell was a very productive player on an overachieving basketball team. That's what the stat proves. Furthermore, if you notice that he shot well below 50% from 2FG, then you know that he was hardly efficient. Thus, what is revealed is that yes, Casey Mitchell was absurdly productive on a slow paced team in limited minutes. The reasons for that are not explained by the stat, but the stat does say that he would have gone nuts playing for VMI. Not sure what your point is, though.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that I saw more of Casey Mitchell's career than you did. He was a maddening player, and not just to me. I imagine he drove Huggins to drink even more than he already did. He scored a lot of points, but not always (or even often) efficiently, and other aspects of his game were mediocre. His effort wasn't always the best. And that's why he didn't play 30 mpg and why his per 40 production is a pointless number, because he was never going to manage to stay in the game long enough to even get close.

I think Thomas Robinson is better than Jared Sullinger right now.

And we're done here. I've already had a crappy day, no point making it worse trying to argue with someone that would seriously say this. Perhaps you're not serious. FYI, the issue with fouls and minutes and rebounding is striking a balance between aggressiveness and needing to stay on the floor. When you're a backup if you get 4 fouls in 15 minutes, it's not as big a deal.

..

 

[JManslow]

Wow...just wow. Barnes didn't shoot as much and still didn't shoot as good a percentage as Fredette did shooting a ton of shots.

Fredette was simply one of the best offensive basketball players that has been in the college game in the last decade. Stephen Curry was about as good. Kevin Durant was probably a little better (talking college only remember), and Adam Morrison and JJ Redick were outstanding and Michael Beasley had a terrific 1 year. That's pretty much it. Probably the best comparison is Curry or Morrison in terms of what they did on offense.

Durant was only a little better than Fredette? What? Carmelo was a only a little better than Wayne Ellington. Please stop pretending like you watch CBB.

 

[KanhojiAngre]

Durant was only a little better than Fredette? What? Carmelo was a only a little better than Wayne Ellington. Please stop pretending like you watch CBB.

Well, Fredette got his shitty ass team farther than Durant got his, and their numbers were similar. Durant obviously got more rebounds because he's a forward, Fredette got more assists.

But in terms of scoring, there's not too much difference.

Durant averaged 26 a game on 47% shooting and 41% from 3. Fredette averaged 29 on 45% shooting and 40 from 3. They both won 2 games in the NCAA tournament.

Obviously Durant as a senior would have probably been a much different story. But that didn't happen.

Fredette would make Wayne Ellington his bitch.

He was the fucking national player of the year by the AP, NABC and several media outlets. I personally would have taken Kemba over him, but I sure wouldn't cry if I had the #2 pick and got Fredette.

I would imagine I probably watch more games per year than anyone on this board. I would also be curious to know how many other people on the board have gotten paid to watch and analyze games.

 

[TWDeac]

Well, Fredette got his shitty ass team farther than Durant got his, and their numbers were similar. Durant obviously got more rebounds because he's a forward, Fredette got more assists.

But in terms of scoring, there's not too much difference.

Durant averaged 26 a game on 47% shooting and 41% from 3. Fredette averaged 29 on 45% shooting and 40 from 3. They both won 2 games in the NCAA tournament.

Obviously Durant as a senior would have probably been a much different story. But that didn't happen.

Fredette would make Wayne Ellington his bitch.

He was the fucking national player of the year by the AP, NABC and several media outlets. I personally would have taken Kemba over him, but I sure wouldn't cry if I had the #2 pick and got Fredette.

I would imagine I probably watch more games per year than anyone on this board. I would also be curious to know how many other people on the board have gotten paid to watch and analyze games.

#humblebrag

#ornotreallysohumble

 

[KanhojiAngre]

#humblebrag

#ornotreallysohumble

If someone's going to call me out and accuse me of not watching the game, I think at that point I'm entitled to play that card.

 

[JManslow]

I would imagine I probably watch more games per year than anyone on this board. I would also be curious to know how many other people on the board have gotten paid to watch and analyze games.

Are you still paid? Hopefully not. Anyone who thinks that Durant was "probably a little better" than Jimmer is straight up dumb or hates black people. Jimmer was good and was fun to watch, but come on.

 

[WRS]

Durant was HANDS DOWN a better offensive player than Fredette. Jesus Christ you're talking about a near 7 foot small forward shooting 41% from 3. They are not even in the same universe.

 

[KanhojiAngre]

Durant was HANDS DOWN a better offensive player than Fredette. Jesus Christ you're talking about a near 7 foot small forward shooting 41% from 3. They are not even in the same universe.

Yeah, so? You don't get points for being tall.

The numbers speak for themselves, and team success. Durant didn't accomplish anything Fredette didn't in college basketball.

 

[Strickland33]

..

The point isn't that anybody plays 40 minutes, but if you adjust stats over 40 minutes and for pace, then you can tell roughly how productive a player would be in a neutral system, relative to other players. That's the stat.

"Well, it ignores other issues. Like what good is it to know how someone woudl do over 40 minutes if they commit too many fouls to play even 30?"

We're not talking about other issues. Never have. Still haven't. Don't let your bad day cloud your ability to read.

"Casey Mitchell was a very productive player on an overachieving basketball team. That's what the stat proves. Furthermore, if you notice that he shot well below 50% from 2FG, then you know that he was hardly efficient. Thus, what is revealed is that yes, Casey Mitchell was absurdly productive on a slow paced team in limited minutes. The reasons for that are not explained by the stat, but the stat does say that he would have gone nuts playing for VMI. Not sure what your point is, though." This is what I said, by the way.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that I saw more of Casey Mitchell's career than you did. He was a maddening player, and not just to me. I imagine he drove Huggins to drink even more than he already did. He scored a lot of points, but not always (or even often) efficiently, and other aspects of his game were mediocre. His effort wasn't always the best. And that's why he didn't play 30 mpg and why his per 40 production is a pointless number, because he was never going to manage to stay in the game long enough to even get close.

You didn't, unless you were at Portsmouth with me and you've seen him play in Europe. But, sure, be patronizing. My point (as I requoted for you, just so you can actually read it) was to show you what the stat showed. If you're going to compare players statistically, you have to adjust for pace over 40 minutes. There's no way around it. I didn't say anything about how he scored. I just showed how throwing out the stat's effectiveness because of Casey Mitchell is inane. Nothing in your argument proves that the stat is wrong about Mitchell. So, just drop it. If you want a subjective analysis on Casey Mitchell, then I'll give it to you (from JuCo to Big East to Portsmouth to his shot spell in Europe)

"And we're done here. I've already had a crappy day, no point making it worse trying to argue with someone that would seriously say this. Perhaps you're not serious. FYI, the issue with fouls and minutes and rebounding is striking a balance between aggressiveness and needing to stay on the floor. When you're a backup if you get 4 fouls in 15 minutes, it's not as big a deal."

I'm glad that you have such a nuanced approach to your analysis of Thomas Robinson. You may have had a crappy day, but that doesn't add anything to what seems to be your style of talent scouting. That is to say, being patronizing without hearing anybody speak around you or saying anything of actual substance about, you know, baseketball.

 

[KanhojiAngre]

 

[Strickland33]

Clever, funny even, but I'm still waiting for you to respond to my initial point. Or, to wow me with your Casey Mitchell knowledge. Or, to impress me with your analysis on both Robinson and Sullinger. Since, you know, you watch more basketball than anyone on these boards. *tongue firmly in cheek*

 

[KanhojiAngre]

Clever, funny even, but I'm still waiting for you to respond to my initial point. Or, to wow me with your Casey Mitchell knowledge. Or, to impress me with your analysis on both Robinson and Sullinger. Since, you know, you watch more basketball than anyone on these boards. *tongue firmly in cheek*

Not sure what there is to respond to. You say you're not talking about "other issues", and I am where they seem relevant. Not much to say there other than we disagree.

If WVU overachieved it, Casey Mitchell frequently had little to nothing to do with it. He had a few games where they couldn't have won without him, but some games he was nearly unplayable.

Sullinger is a proven producer in heavy minutes as the focal point of an opposing defense, Robinson isn't. Not much to say there either.

Can we just call this a stalemate. Really striking me as arguing for its own sake at this point. We both have reasonably informed positions, but don't have the same conclusions. Fine with me.

 

[tintinisahottie]

i effing love jimmer

 

[HalIncandenza]

I'd put a chip on Travis Relaford to be KU's leading scorer considering the odds I'd get.

LOL, why would you throw away your money on a guy who can't hit a jump shot to save his life, especially when he would be the 4th option on offense? I know you say you watch a lot of basketball, but I'll assume you didn't watch a lot of KU or have seen much of Releford's career. A nice player, versatile and a good defender, but he does virtually nothing on offense(3.7ppg). And he's probably not 1/2 of the player his little brother is at Bama.

Robinson is probably a top ten player. I don't think people understand how good of a rebounder he is. He also has one of the best big men coaches in the nation (Danny Manning; see: crazy improvement from the Morris brothers who sucked as freshmen, NBAers Darnell Jackson, Darrell Arthur, and even Sasha Kaun was drafted all after being tutored by DM), so I'd expect for him to improve his back to the basket game, as well as keep getting lots of garbage buckets. I'd be shocked if he were to get the 19 and 16 that I saw someone else say, but it's certainly not unreasonable for him to average 18 and 12, which is still elite.

 

[KanhojiAngre]

LOL, why would you throw away your money on a guy who can't hit a jump shot to save his life, especially when he would be the 4th option on offense?

He's really experienced for a junior, having redshirted and played internationally.

They don't really have an elite recruit that figures to push him out. Ben McLemore could take one wing spot, but seems certain that Releford will have the other.

They're gonna play fast and he can play in the open court probably better than their off guards last year.

He's not going to get in foul trouble very often. I think this is a concern with Robinson considering he committed a foul about every 7 minutes last year.

Shooting 50% when you take almost half your shots from 3 is pretty good. He's made a good percentage of his 3's too. Not sure how he "can't hit a jump shot to save his life". Didn't look that way last year.

I thought he should have played more last year. I was never very impressed with Selby or Reed. He played more before Selby became eligible and before he got hurt. Maybe he lost some confidence in that time, or maybe just was the victim of a numbers game or a promise made to Selby, but it shouldn't happen this year.