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Charleston Church Shooting

Walmart will do whatever it thinks will make it the most money. It supported Obamacare for that reason. I refer you to Lenin and the rope.

No shit. It's noteworthy that Walmart thinks they'll make more money by not selling items eke the Confederate flag. It means they've picked up on some trend and want to get ahead of it, not necessarily a moral stance.
 
I grew up in SC and have always had a major interest in Southern history. It's always fascinated and disturbed me the perspective on the Civil War that is prevalent among even well educated people in the state. I worked as a tour guide at two antebellum plantations throughout high school and during the summers when I was home from Wake. I routinely had long discussions about the origins of the war and it's legacy.

Many if not most here completely buy into the romanticized Lost Cause mythology of the war and virtually any discussion of the role of slavery is conditioned with a hedge about a myriad of other causes such as tariffs/trade policy and most of all state's rights. All this ignores that these disputes were all rooted on the necessity of slavery to the white Southern economy and way of life. Look at the secession declarations for each of the Confederate states. The preservation of slavery is first and foremost in every one of them. You won't find the word tariff once.

Beyond just the flag in Columbia, I find far more disturbing how figures like Ben Tillman and Wade Hampton, who were by any definition white supremacist terrorists, have statues erected for them and their names plastered on buildings, schools, and roads throughout the state. The most famous building on Clemson's campus is Tillman Hall, named for a man that once said regarding a massacre of blacks in Hamburg, SC:

The purpose of our visit to Hamburg was to strike terror, and the next morning (Sunday) when the negroes who had fled to the swamp returned to the town (some of them never did return, but kept on going) the ghastly sight which met their gaze of seven dead negroes lying stark and stiff, certainly had its effect ... It was now after midnight, and the moon high in the heavens looked down peacefully on the deserted town and dead negroes, whose lives had been offered up as a sacrifice to the fanatical teachings and fiendish hate of those who sought to substitute the rule of the African for that of the Caucasian in South Carolina
 
I grew up in SC and have always had a major interest in Southern history. It's always fascinated and disturbed me the perspective on the Civil War that is prevalent among even well educated people in the state. I worked as a tour guide at two antebellum plantations throughout high school and during the summers when I was home from Wake. I routinely had long discussions about the origins of the war and it's legacy.

Many if not most here completely buy into the romanticized Lost Cause mythology of the war and virtually any discussion of the role of slavery is conditioned with a hedge about a myriad of other causes such as tariffs/trade policy and most of all state's rights. All this ignores that these disputes were all rooted on the necessity of slavery to the white Southern economy and way of life. Look at the secession declarations for each of the Confederate states. The preservation of slavery is first and foremost in every one of them. You won't find the word tariff once.

Beyond just the flag in Columbia, I find far more disturbing how figures like Ben Tillman and Wade Hampton, who were by any definition white supremacist terrorists, have statues erected for them and their names plastered on buildings, schools, and roads throughout the state. The most famous building on Clemson's campus is Tillman Hall, named for a man that once said regarding a massacre of blacks in Hamburg, SC:

The purpose of our visit to Hamburg was to strike terror, and the next morning (Sunday) when the negroes who had fled to the swamp returned to the town (some of them never did return, but kept on going) the ghastly sight which met their gaze of seven dead negroes lying stark and stiff, certainly had its effect ... It was now after midnight, and the moon high in the heavens looked down peacefully on the deserted town and dead negroes, whose lives had been offered up as a sacrifice to the fanatical teachings and fiendish hate of those who sought to substitute the rule of the African for that of the Caucasian in South Carolina

Good post. I have no idea how people can decouple support for slavery from the Southern heritage afforded by slavery.
 
So if I have pride in being a southerner I am tactitly, though necessarily, supporting slavery?

You can't help where you were born. I too like PalmettoDeac19 have lived my whole life in SC and fully admit this is a deeply fucked up state, but one that I love deeply. I am terribly ashamed of the way the rest of the nation continues to look at SC because of a few bad apples that still push laws/thoughts/ways left over from the 50's/60's era. Smaller towns like the one I live in (Spartanburg) are finally truly on the move with their economies and development of their downtowns and moving past the fucked up politics of the past that held things back. People I know are ready for all kinds of change concerning race, gay marriage, and just being able to do what you want and express yourself the way you want.

However there will still be certain folks around the state that want us to stay the way things used to be which is akin to all those towns featured in those old goofy southern Burt Reynolds movies. One case in point is a state senator from right outside Spartanburg named Lee Bright. Google this clown and listen to the crap he is spouting.
 
Good post. I have no idea how people can decouple support for slavery from the Southern heritage afforded by slavery.

the whole "states rights not slavery" narrative is all that white southerners hear from the time they are old enough to understand their parents and grandparents talk. It was all I heard, and my family was more educated and enlightened then most of my friends. So I had that narrative in my head until I went to Wake Forest and got educated, and even then it took some time as a fully formed adult to really and fully comprehend the issues. The majority of white southerners never get that kind of education and never reach that level of comprehension. The fact that the South is the least educated and poorest part of the nation is not unrelated to this, of course. That's why it is and will continue to be an uphill battle.

It is, of course, perfectly possible to be fond of and proud of where I was raised despite the wrongheaded ideas that are all too common up there. I don't have to flip off that switch and despise my grandparents because I now recognize that they were wrong about the Confederacy and what the battle flag stands for, or be ashamed of where I was raised because 95% of the inhabitants voted for Amendment One (OK I might be a little ashamed about that one). There are a lot of great things about the rural South. I want the great things to be preserved and the not-so-great things to be overcome.
 
the whole "states rights not slavery" narrative is all that white southerners hear from the time they are old enough to understand their parents and grandparents talk. It was all I heard, and my family was more educated and enlightened then most of my friends. So I had that narrative in my head until I went to Wake Forest and got educated, and even then it took some time as a fully formed adult to really and fully comprehend the issues. The majority of white southerners never get that kind of education and never reach that level of comprehension. The fact that the South is the least educated and poorest part of the nation is not unrelated to this, of course. That's why it is and will continue to be an uphill battle.

It is, of course, perfectly possible to be fond of and proud of where I was raised despite the wrongheaded ideas that are all too common up there. I don't have to flip off that switch and despise my grandparents because I now recognize that they were wrong about the Confederacy and what the battle flag stands for, or be ashamed of where I was raised because 95% of the inhabitants voted for Amendment One (OK I might be a little ashamed about that one). There are a lot of great things about the rural South. I want the great things to be preserved and the not-so-great things to be overcome.

Where did you grow up (if you don't mind me asking)? Because this was not something I heard a lot of growing up in the South. I was always taught that the main driver of the Civil War was the South's dependence on slave labor. This might have to do with growing up in Asheville, a relatively progressive place even 100 years ago when I was growing up. There were always a few kids that wanted to argue that the "War of Northern Aggression" was not about slavery (or even worse slaves were better off) but that was definitely not the prevalent thought or taught point of view. And I would guess I am older than you.
 
Where did you grow up (if you don't mind me asking)? Because this was not something I heard a lot of growing up in the South. I was always taught that the main driver of the Civil War was the South's dependence on slave labor. This might have to do with growing up in Asheville, a relatively progressive place even 100 years ago when I was growing up. There were always a few kids that wanted to argue that the "War of Northern Aggression" was not about slavery (or even worse slaves were better off) but that was definitely not the prevalent thought or taught point of view. And I would guess I am older than you.

I am 39. I grew up in the northwestern section of the NC mountains, which (outside of the Boone-Blowing Rock hippie bastion) is very poor and very conservative.
 
Growing up in Texas, I was taught the civil war was a war to end slavery... :noidea:

Go figure
 
I am 39. I grew up in the northwestern section of the NC mountains, which (outside of the Boone-Blowing Rock hippie bastion) is very poor and very conservative.

HA! So much for my theory. We are the exact same age and I grew up 1.5 hours away from you. Although I will say, as someone that went to App State there is a very big culture difference between rural Watauga County and Asheville.
 
Growing up in Texas, I was taught the civil war was a war to end slavery... :noidea:

Go figure

That's what I learned in the foothills of NC.

My relatives didn't talk much about the Civil War. One of my grandfathers talked a lot about WWII. The other one never wanted to talk about war (he earned an infantryman badge at the Battle of the Bulge).

I'm 39 as well. Must've only been people younger and older who heard differently.
 
Let me clarify. I certainly understood from a young age that the civil war had a lot to do with slavery and ending slavery. what I am talking about specifically is the sophistry around the veneration of the "Lost Cause" and the Confederate battle flag in particular. To justify being proud of the Confederacy and flying the flag and so forth, all of my relatives and friends and their relatives were steeped in the narrative of "states rights" and "heritage". That was what we were supposed to be proud of and why the battle flag was an OK symbol to have on one's truck or yard or whatever. In that context the issue of slavery was minimized or completely glossed over, and certainly nobody ever mentioned or cared about how a black person might view the battle flag.
 
Proper article on the flag from a Mississippian Christian voice. Pretty much sums up my view of the confederate flag. I understand that it does mean something more than slavery to some people, but to a vast many, and to pretty much all African Americans, the stars and bars represents a hateful symbol. Just doesn't make a lot of sense to celebrate that symbol. I doubt Mississippi will take it out of our flag for a while though. It was brought up a few years back and failed pretty miserably. It certainly isn't a good look for our state, and we don't need any self imposed deficiencies when courting business, education, residents, etc...

http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/the-cross-and-the-confederate-flag
 
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