Coron Williams

[Wrangor]

Exactly so. And teams are now putting some length on him to cut his offensive production.

Because the other teams realize that outside of Coron we have almost no one that can shoot the basketball. Coron is doing just fine for his capabilities. I kind of like him as a player it is just unfortunate that he is in the situation he is in. Of course that is how I feel for everyone that has to play for Jeff [Redacted].

 

[DCDeac]

I think certain posters need to go read the Coron/CJ threads again.

The vast majority of posters who thought we'd improve overall this year referenced Coron's shooting as a replacement for CJ's 3 point production - not his entire game. CJ hit 59 3's last year and Coron has 46 so far this year, so Coron is actually a bit ahead of CJ's production from 3 point land with 30% of the season left.

The team needed Codi to step up and needed a legitimate outside threat - Coron and Codi have both filled those roles pretty well. Codi's averages are impressive compared to CJ's when you factor in his lack of 3 point shooting. He trails CJ's senior year production by 1 point per game despite poor free throw shooting as well.

Coron's doing exactly the job we needed him to. Codi is filling exactly the roll he's been asked to fill. The problem isn't replacing CJ - it's that CJ was a really good player on a bad team, so the moderate improvement after his exit leaves us as a squarely mediocre team.

Next year we'll lose Travis. I'd expect Cav to replace some of his shooting and Moto/McClinton to replace some of his scoring down low. But even if that pans out you're barely making any improvement at all. Whether we get better will again depend on a kid like Shelton, who will need to outplay his ranking significantly to move Wake to NCAA territory.

 

[TwentyONE]

I missed the GT debacle. I thought he struggled against Cuse but has been fine contributor in every other game we've played.

 

[morrison2951]

I missed the GT debacle.

Lucky bastard!

 

[Strickland33]

I think certain posters need to go read the Coron/CJ threads again.

The vast majority of posters who thought we'd improve overall this year referenced Coron's shooting as a replacement for CJ's 3 point production - not his entire game. CJ hit 59 3's last year and Coron has 46 so far this year, so Coron is actually a bit ahead of CJ's production from 3 point land with 30% of the season left.

The team needed Codi to step up and needed a legitimate outside threat - Coron and Codi have both filled those roles pretty well. Codi's averages are impressive compared to CJ's when you factor in his lack of 3 point shooting. He trails CJ's senior year production by 1 point per game despite poor free throw shooting as well.

Coron's doing exactly the job we needed him to. Codi is filling exactly the roll he's been asked to fill. The problem isn't replacing CJ - it's that CJ was a really good player on a bad team, so the moderate improvement after his exit leaves us as a squarely mediocre team.

Next year we'll lose Travis. I'd expect Cav to replace some of his shooting and Moto/McClinton to replace some of his scoring down low. But even if that pans out you're barely making any improvement at all. Whether we get better will again depend on a kid like Shelton, who will need to outplay his ranking significantly to move Wake to NCAA territory.

Condescension aside, I think you might need to rethink your logic on this one. What made CJ such a dangerous player was the fact that he could get to the rim and knock down perimeter jumpers WHILE he was our primary ball handler and facilitator and best perimeter defender.

The fact that we have a guy who can get to the rim/shoot from mid-range AND a guy who can knock down threes DOES NOT mean that we are replacing the guy who did both. Likewise, that neither guy is as good of a facilitator (at least in my subjective opinion) or defender (seems pretty objectively true) is an important factor, as well.

There are a ton of reasons for why this matters, but consider this example: Endgame situations without CJ mean that we have to diagram a play to get Coron open (and risk the fact that he's a major defensive liability) and/or hope Codi can create a look for himself somewhere inside of the arc. With CJ (like Ish or Teague, or the clutch guards of the past), you could put the ball in their hands and have the option of having them score inside/outside or create a look for their teammates while not compromising defensive presence. You don't see that this year, for better or for worse.

Replacing brute production is not the point. Think about your Travis example: Tyler is neither as good of a perimeter defender nor as efficient with the ball as Travis is and he's (again, in my subjective opinion) not as good of a shooter. Neither is Moto and neither will be Greg. Replacing a guy, in the way that you're attempting to do, is more holistic than simplistically comparing a player to combinations of players. You know this.

In fact, I'd hypothesize that there is probably a very weak correlation, if there is one at all, between production and improvement simply on the basis of replacing player a with players b and c as an operationalization of improvement. I think this year has been proof of that.

 

[Dino Gaudino]

^CJ was a master flopper. One of the GOATs at that skill, imo.

 

[DCDeac]

You're overcomplicating things. The argument was that we would be worse and that we had nobody to replace CJ's scoring and we'd have no outside threat. Codi and Coron have combined this year to replace CJ + Codi last year. And Coron is a legit outside threat. It's pretty simple.

Nobody argued Coron was going to straight up replace CJ.

I have no idea where you're getting your endgame situations stuff from. Truth is CJ struggled mightily in that role last year outside of shooting free throws down the stretch, whereas Codi has been excellent in that role this year.

Of course replacing production (I don't know what "brute" means in this instance) matters. What else do you replace, hustle and effort and likability? Do you not think this year's team is better than last year? Maybe that's the main issue here, because we are clearly better.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I think certain posters need to go read the Coron/CJ threads again.

The vast majority of posters who thought we'd improve overall this year referenced Coron's shooting as a replacement for CJ's 3 point production - not his entire game. CJ hit 59 3's last year and Coron has 46 so far this year, so Coron is actually a bit ahead of CJ's production from 3 point land with 30% of the season left.

The team needed Codi to step up and needed a legitimate outside threat - Coron and Codi have both filled those roles pretty well. Codi's averages are impressive compared to CJ's when you factor in his lack of 3 point shooting. He trails CJ's senior year production by 1 point per game despite poor free throw shooting as well.

Coron's doing exactly the job we needed him to. Codi is filling exactly the roll he's been asked to fill. The problem isn't replacing CJ - it's that CJ was a really good player on a bad team, so the moderate improvement after his exit leaves us as a squarely mediocre team.

Next year we'll lose Travis. I'd expect Cav to replace some of his shooting and Moto/McClinton to replace some of his scoring down low. But even if that pans out you're barely making any improvement at all. Whether we get better will again depend on a kid like Shelton, who will need to outplay his ranking significantly to move Wake to NCAA territory.

So you're saying we need better players...I agree.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

You're overcomplicating things. The argument was that we would be worse and that we had nobody to replace CJ's scoring and we'd have no outside threat. Codi and Coron have combined this year to replace CJ + Codi last year. And Coron is a legit outside threat. It's pretty simple.

Nobody argued Coron was going to straight up replace CJ.

I have no idea where you're getting your endgame situations stuff from. Truth is CJ struggled mightily in that role last year outside of shooting free throws down the stretch, whereas Codi has been excellent in that role this year.

Of course replacing production (I don't know what "brute" means in this instance) matters. What else do you replace, hustle and effort and likability? Do you not think this year's team is better than last year? Maybe that's the main issue here, because we are clearly better.

I don't think it's clear at all. We won games against mediocre/bad teams missing leading scorers. We are nowhere near as good as our record would indicate, and our record isn't that great.

 

[DCDeac]

I don't think it's clear at all. We won games against mediocre/bad teams missing leading scorers. We are nowhere near as good as our record would indicate, and our record isn't that great.

Agreed that we need better players and that we are still mediocre. But we're definitely better. We hit our win total from last year in January.

 

[Strickland33]

You're overcomplicating things. The argument was that we would be worse and that we had nobody to replace CJ's scoring and we'd have no outside threat. Codi and Coron have combined this year to replace CJ + Codi last year. And Coron is a legit outside threat. It's pretty simple.

Nobody argued Coron was going to straight up replace CJ.

I have no idea where you're getting your endgame situations stuff from. Truth is CJ struggled mightily in that role last year outside of shooting free throws down the stretch, whereas Codi has been excellent in that role this year.

Of course replacing production (I don't know what "brute" means in this instance) matters. What else do you replace, hustle and effort and likability? Do you not think this year's team is better than last year? Maybe that's the main issue here, because we are clearly better.

A) I'm overcomplicating it in response to you oversimplifying it. How has Codi been substantially better than CJ down the stretch this year, outside of him winning us two games against really bad teams? Likewise, I told you that a more holistic measure of improvement takes into account the fact that one guy did what you are claiming two guys replace (when combined), basketball IQ (aka facilitation ability) and defensive ability. The latter two, I admitted are based on subjective opinion, but I don't think many feel like Codi and Coron trumps CJ in either regard. I could be wrong, though.

B) I'm wondering if we are actually clearly better. Perhaps the kenpom folks can weigh in on this. We are ranked lower now than we started this season despite an easier schedule. I see our guys looking good against shitty teams and more or less playing to low expectations against good ones. I've showed this in splits with Codi and Devin, but it's true for Cav, Coron, and Travis as well. I see only CMM really trumping preseason expectations on the basis of per-40 pace adjusted and even he is regressing to the mean as the level competition has increased (and even against teams that are not very good).

 

[Strickland33]

Agreed that we need better players and that we are still mediocre. But we're definitely better. We hit our win total from last year in January.

Because we played Jacksonville, USC, Tulane, Colgate, VT, etc. C'mon man, you're better than this.

 

[morrison2951]

Agreed that we need better players and that we are still mediocre. But we're definitely better. We hit our win total from last year in January and will likely be stuck on it through February.

February is the shortest month of the calendar year, but will be a long one for us.

 

[jaybone]

I don't think it's clear at all. We won games against mediocre/bad teams missing leading scorers. We are nowhere near as good as our record would indicate, and our record isn't that great.

Such a bullshit argument. Talking out of both sides of your mouth. We won 8 games Bzd's first year. that was the bottom line and has always been the bottom line. Regardless of these departures or those games. The last two years we won 13. Folks would post on here we had more promise last year because we played so many freshmen and always the number 13 was thrown back and rightly so. I never once posted that if CJ could hit a bunny layup or wide open jumper we'd have 15 wins and should have had 15 wins. So if we win 18 or 19 or 20 games this year, no bullshit argument of opponents playing at less strength because of injury is going to work. The game is about winning and representing the university that is giving you a free education. That's it.

 

[Strickland33]

Such a bullshit argument. Talking out of both sides of your mouth. We won 8 games Bzd's first year. that was the bottom line and has always been the bottom line. Regardless of these departures or those games. The last two years we won 13. Folks would post on here we had more promise last year because we played so many freshmen and always the number 13 was thrown back and rightly so. I never once posted that if CJ could hit a bunny layup or wide open jumper we'd have 15 wins and should have had 15 wins. So if we win 18 or 19 or 20 games this year, no bullshit argument of opponents playing at less strength because of injury is going to work. The game is about winning and representing the university that is giving you a free education. That's it.

Agreed. For your bet. I don't think that's what Turd is talking about, though.

The claim that we've improved is more than simply Ws and Ls. That folks are arguing to the contrary proves that Wellman's scheduling has proven successful in diverting attention from the bottom line.

 

[Dino Gaudino]

A) I'm overcomplicating it in response to you oversimplifying it. How has Codi been substantially better than CJ down the stretch this year, outside of him winning us two games against really bad teams? Likewise, I told you that a more holistic measure of improvement takes into account the fact that one guy did what you are claiming two guys replace (when combined), basketball IQ (aka facilitation ability) and defensive ability. The latter two, I admitted are based on subjective opinion, but I don't think many feel like Codi and Coron trumps CJ in either regard. I could be wrong, though.

B) I'm wondering if we are actually clearly better. Perhaps the kenpom folks can weigh in on this. We are ranked lower now than we started this season despite an easier schedule. I see our guys looking good against shitty teams and more or less playing to low expectations against good ones. I've showed this in splits with Codi and Devin, but it's true for Cav, Coron, and Travis as well. I see only CMM really trumping preseason expectations on the basis of per-40 pace adjusted and even he is regressing to the mean as the level competition has increased (and even against teams that are not very good).

Senior CJ>sophomore Codi>sophomore/junior CJ

 

[Ayo]

Agreed that we need better players and that we are still mediocre. But we're definitely better. We hit our win total from last year in January.

Huh? We've played Colgate, Presbyterian, The Citadel, UNC Greensboro, Jacksonville State, VMI, Tulane, and VT. Those are 8 wins over absolutely terrible teams. We are definitely not clearly better than last year.

 

[DCDeac]

A) By my memory CJ was unable to hit winning shots down the stretch against really bad teams last year. It's not real fair to Codi to just say he beat "really bad" teams so it doesn't count. And I didn't say two guys are replacing one guy. I said 2 guys are replacing 2 guys. I loved CJ but he was a 15 point scorer on a 13 win team and wasn't a great defender. By adding a good 3 point shooter and Codi taking over CJ's leadership role on the team we've actually gotten better in my opinion - and the stats support that to this point.

B) We won 13 games last year. We were bad. I'll admit GaTech has me wondering if we're going to free fall or something, but it's fairly likely we win that game if the Codi injury play doesn't happen. If he comes back healthy after Duke then we'll see. If we lose 7 straight or whatever then maybe we aren't any better. The eye test this year says we've improved. The wins say we've improved. The fan support says we've improved. You'd be hard pressed to find many objective fans of other teams who don't think Wake is better this year, even if we're still mediocre.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Such a bullshit argument. Talking out of both sides of your mouth. We won 8 games Bzd's first year. that was the bottom line and has always been the bottom line. Regardless of these departures or those games. The last two years we won 13. Folks would post on here we had more promise last year because we played so many freshmen and always the number 13 was thrown back and rightly so. I never once posted that if CJ could hit a bunny layup or wide open jumper we'd have 15 wins and should have had 15 wins. So if we win 18 or 19 or 20 games this year, no bullshit argument of opponents playing at less strength because of injury is going to work. The game is about winning and representing the university that is giving you a free education. That's it.

God you are dumb. Of course the schedule matters. And what happened to all your insights about how great Coach Bz is even though his record didn't show that. If it's only about wins and losses, then how could you ever have supported hiring a coach who was 10-38 over three seasons in the Big 12?

 

[Pilchard]

Coron's stats from the 3 point line:

All games 46 for 125 37% 2.1 per game
Non-ACC games: 31 for 72 43% 2.4 per game
ACC games: 15 for 53 28% 1.7 per game

A few observations:

- As stated above, tougher to make shots against better/bigger competition.
- ACC teams scout their competition and prepare their defenses better than OOC opponents. Coron is an easy player to defend if other teams gameplan to stop him.
- Shooters are streaky, and he is in a slump right now 8 for his last 34 from 3. He had good looks against Cuse and GT, and just missed them.