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Coronavirus !!! Very Political Thread !!!

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silk said:
DM. I hope and pray it will get better.
If it don't soon I can see citizens demand government layoffs.
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Yep, that makes sense. Le't's layoff people who can help us get through this.
 
RJKarl said:
Yep, that makes sense. Le't's layoff people who can help us get through this.
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There are parts of the government that could very well get furloughed. Other parts could need to be bolstered and savings in one area could move to others. For instance, the trash will come once every two weeks instead of every week. Do you need a bailiff in the courthouse if no one is going to court. Maybe you cut down hours at the impound lot. Loads of ways governments may choose or need to act. Even if those are private enterprises that provide the service, it is government related. And governments may need to demand workers take pay cuts in order to keep functioning fully at some point in time. Loads of private businesses have already slashed salaries for all workers. Government will not be immune.
 
Haven't seen much as way of data on the american deaths by age group/pre-existing conditions.

Also hearing more like the R0 is closer to 6 people think?
 
DeacMan said:
There are parts of the government that could very well get furloughed. Other parts could need to be bolstered and savings in one area could move to others. For instance, the trash will come once every two weeks instead of every week. Do you need a bailiff in the courthouse if no one is going to court. Maybe you cut down hours at the impound lot. Loads of ways governments may choose or need to act. Even if those are private enterprises that provide the service, it is government related. And governments may need to demand workers take pay cuts in order to keep functioning fully at some point in time. Loads of private businesses have already slashed salaries for all workers. Government will not be immune.
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The problem is that you're assuming that these cuts would be made on any kind of practical level. I have zero faith in the Trump administration or many state governors or many local officials to make smart decisions as to who gets laid off or furloughed, or what agencies get cut. Furthermore, cutting government workers will likely only increase the anxiety, stress, and general fears of the public and lead to even more hoarding and other bad decisions. It's like a row of dominoes. If we start going down that route, things are likely to get worse instead of better.
 
palmab03 said:
I read somewhere that 80% of ventilator patients end up dying, if that's true, why are ventilators so important? Seems tests would be significantly more important
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DeaconBrews said:
I think it's more like 30%.
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Just read this again on CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/11/health/nurse-last-words-coronavirus-patient-trnd/index.html

Most Covid-19 patients will die after being placed on ventilators, with the mortality rate reaching up to 80% in intubated coronavirus patients, Smith said. While he does not know whether his patient survived, he said it was "pretty unlikely."
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Highland Deac said:
The problem is that you're assuming that these cuts would be made on any kind of practical level. I have zero faith in the Trump administration or many state governors or many local officials to make smart decisions as to who gets laid off or furloughed, or what agencies get cut. Furthermore, cutting government workers will likely only increase the anxiety, stress, and general fears of the public and lead to even more hoarding and other bad decisions. It's like a row of dominoes. If we start going down that route, things are likely to get worse instead of better.
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Not picking on you, but reading this board sometimes makes my head hurt.

This Board - We need more centralized solutions to our problems

Also this Board - I have no faith in anyone to implement a centralized solution.

FWIW, I hear you. I live near a well worn set of paths that go around a lake. There's a running path closest to the lake, then a dedicated one way bike path that is 6 feet wide side to side and then a road. The city, in their infinite wisdom closed the road so people would have more room to spread out. But in doing so they forgot that these paths are like a honey pot for people on warmer days. And the bike path, in particular, is getting over used. It is literally impossible for bikers who want to pass other bikers to stay six feet away from each other. And so I watch on each nice day as hundreds of bikers pass and get passed on that path from my kitchen window. I and several neighbors have pointed this out to the mayor as well as the parks superintendent. They have acknowledged the problem openly. And they have taken no actions to close the paths to bikers and/or implement fines for people who go down to the lake with a friend or friend group as opposed to just their family. I literally have an email acknowledging the problem. It is a week old. No action. Nothing. Why?

Well, a representative of the mayor, someone who I know is personally very concerned with the issue as he lives in an apartment overlooking a similar trail and told me he was alarmed said to me "this is a delicate balance". I wrote him back and said with all due respect that's a crap answer - that if 4 to 5 people a day were wandering around the trail on the lake near my home and firing a rifle randomly down the path the police would be out there in full force to stop that type of hazard. And that right now he can rest assured some portion of people are firing a loaded gun with every breath they take. He already gets it and said he was passing that exact analogy along to the mayor. He too wants the city to be bolder. That was days ago. Crickets.

In short, the mayor is a really good man but even he is thinking about his approval ratings in the polls vs. taking responsible action to close the paths to bikes and put a cop or two out on these well worn paths writing tickets for people who are out with those who do not live with them.

Meanwhile down at the local hardware store they rigidly enforce everyone staying out of the store, keeping everyone 10 feet apart while they wait in line, and when you get to the front of the line they ask you to approach a plastic shield and tell them your order while they go into the store to get the stuff you need and bring it back to the window. And they've set up a touchless payment system as well. So a private business acts in a way that makes people feel very comforted while our city leaders of the grand bureaucracy acknowledge problems but dither for days on end.

FWIW, I was told if people continue to fuck up for another nice day or two paths will be closed. Tick tock.

Bureaucracies sure can suck.
 
People want centralized solutions but don’t trust a party that has no interest in centralized solutions to put them into place or abide by them.
 
GOP lawmakers: Fauci may be doing more harm than good


Republican Reps. Andy Biggs (Ariz.) and Ken Buck (Colo.) criticized Anthony Fauci, the nation’s leading infectious disease expert, for the impact of his social distancing recommendations, claiming that the stay-at-home policies informed by those recommendations have forced businesses, workers and corporations into economic turmoil.

“For Fauci, is it merely a societal or economic inconvenience that about 17 million workers are unemployed because of the government’s response to the coronavirus pandemic, with many more to come in the weeks and months ahead? The economic calamity lies largely with the origination of policies resulting from Fauci's recommendations,” the lawmakers wrote in an op-ed in the Washington Examiner published Saturday.

Biggs and Buck, both members of the conservative Freedom Caucus and staunch allies of President Trump, join others on the right in criticizing public health officials on the administration’s coronavirus task force. On Tuesday, Tucker Carlson, a conservative commentator on Fox News, said that Fauci “shouldn’t be making economic decisions.”

Full: https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/492359-gop-lawmakers-fauci-may-be-doing-more-harm-than-good
 
PhDeac said:
People want centralized solutions but don’t trust a party that has no interest in centralized solutions to put them into place or abide by them.
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It isn't just one party that can't run a centralized solution. The very nature of politicians is to dither before they act and decide. For fucks sake one need look no further than just about every single government on this planet to see how woefully prepared almost every one of them was to deal with this issue.

1 - Japan has a testing rate akin to India.

2 - Europe closed no travel with China even as Italy was starting to burn alive. With very limited exceptions they have insanely high death rates on confirmed cases. They all have government run healthcare.

3 - The US. Don't even get me started on the genius within the Federal government who decided we would develop our own test for this thing and dithered away all home we had at pushing out tests quickly. And while we did cut off travel from China to a large degree no one had the common sense to ask if other places were cutting off travel from China. Epic face palms abound.

4 - China. Where do we even begin with that clusterfuck of a cover up from the local Wuhan officials all the way to Beijing. Ultimately the world is FUCKED because of them.

I can't even fathom how long it would take for the Federal government to organize itself to push out money to businesses via the SBA without banks helping them line up all the applications. And then the SBA's website still breaks down.

Governments are bureaucracies. And bureaucracies are never built to move quickly or efficiently. And often they are built to hide the truth. Human nature is just a bitch many times.
 
Newenglanddeac said:
GOP lawmakers: Fauci may be doing more harm than good


Republican Reps. Andy Biggs (Ariz.) and Ken Buck (Colo.) criticized Anthony Fauci, the nation’s leading infectious disease expert, for the impact of his social distancing recommendations, claiming that the stay-at-home policies informed by those recommendations have forced businesses, workers and corporations into economic turmoil.

“For Fauci, is it merely a societal or economic inconvenience that about 17 million workers are unemployed because of the government’s response to the coronavirus pandemic, with many more to come in the weeks and months ahead? The economic calamity lies largely with the origination of policies resulting from Fauci's recommendations,” the lawmakers wrote in an op-ed in the Washington Examiner published Saturday.

Biggs and Buck, both members of the conservative Freedom Caucus and staunch allies of President Trump, join others on the right in criticizing public health officials on the administration’s coronavirus task force. On Tuesday, Tucker Carlson, a conservative commentator on Fox News, said that Fauci “shouldn’t be making economic decisions.”

Full: https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/492359-gop-lawmakers-fauci-may-be-doing-more-harm-than-good
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They can all go fuck themselves.
 
WFFaithful said:
Link?
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Shorty said:
Yeah, I’d like to see that, too.
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DeacMan said:
Not picking on you, but reading this board sometimes makes my head hurt.

This Board - We need more centralized solutions to our problems

Also this Board - I have no faith in anyone to implement a centralized solution.

FWIW, I hear you. I live near a well worn set of paths that go around a lake. There's a running path closest to the lake, then a dedicated one way bike path that is 6 feet wide side to side and then a road. The city, in their infinite wisdom closed the road so people would have more room to spread out. But in doing so they forgot that these paths are like a honey pot for people on warmer days. And the bike path, in particular, is getting over used. It is literally impossible for bikers who want to pass other bikers to stay six feet away from each other. And so I watch on each nice day as hundreds of bikers pass and get passed on that path from my kitchen window. I and several neighbors have pointed this out to the mayor as well as the parks superintendent. They have acknowledged the problem openly. And they have taken no actions to close the paths to bikers and/or implement fines for people who go down to the lake with a friend or friend group as opposed to just their family. I literally have an email acknowledging the problem. It is a week old. No action. Nothing. Why?

Well, a representative of the mayor, someone who I know is personally very concerned with the issue as he lives in an apartment overlooking a similar trail and told me he was alarmed said to me "this is a delicate balance". I wrote him back and said with all due respect that's a crap answer - that if 4 to 5 people a day were wandering around the trail on the lake near my home and firing a rifle randomly down the path the police would be out there in full force to stop that type of hazard. And that right now he can rest assured some portion of people are firing a loaded gun with every breath they take. He already gets it and said he was passing that exact analogy along to the mayor. He too wants the city to be bolder. That was days ago. Crickets.

In short, the mayor is a really good man but even he is thinking about his approval ratings in the polls vs. taking responsible action to close the paths to bikes and put a cop or two out on these well worn paths writing tickets for people who are out with those who do not live with them.

Meanwhile down at the local hardware store they rigidly enforce everyone staying out of the store, keeping everyone 10 feet apart while they wait in line, and when you get to the front of the line they ask you to approach a plastic shield and tell them your order while they go into the store to get the stuff you need and bring it back to the window. And they've set up a touchless payment system as well. So a private business acts in a way that makes people feel very comforted while our city leaders of the grand bureaucracy acknowledge problems but dither for days on end.

FWIW, I was told if people continue to fuck up for another nice day or two paths will be closed. Tick tock.

Bureaucracies sure can suck.
Click to expand...

that's kind of a bullshit comparison. A private company has no one to answer to except the owner and shareholders, as long as customers keep going there. A representative government has to answer to all their constituents, even the ones who didn't vote for them. Their tax payer dollars fund the construction and maintenance on those trails. People can utilize them safely while still maintaining social distancing. I think you would be doing more harm by forcing people to stay indoors than the harm that comes from somebody passing within the 6 foot barrier for 1-1.5 seconds.
 
BeachBumDeac said:
that's kind of a bullshit comparison. A private company has no one to answer to except the owner and shareholders, as long as customers keep going there. A representative government has to answer to all their constituents, even the ones who didn't vote for them. Their tax payer dollars fund the construction and maintenance on those trails. People can utilize them safely while still maintaining social distancing. I think you would be doing more harm by forcing people to stay indoors than the harm that comes from somebody passing within the 6 foot barrier for 1-1.5 seconds.
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It takes one breath to become infected. And, regardless of what you think, I have it in writing that the city leaders admit it is a real problem. They have said in writing they need to close things down. But it takes them days to act. Just like it took them days to close the streets to provide people more space. They're just fucking slow as shit.

To be clear, their number one obligation is the health and safety of their citizens.

And the business is serving the same constituents. They're just doing things from the perspective of having to assure they can stay open. The city isn't playing that game . . . yet. Once cops start getting sick their failure to act sooner will rest in part on their inability to be decisive.
 
DeacMan said:
Not picking on you, but reading this board sometimes makes my head hurt.

This Board - We need more centralized solutions to our problems

Also this Board - I have no faith in anyone to implement a centralized solution..
Click to expand...

Actually it's not a contradiction. As I posted, I have little to no faith in Trump or the Republican Party to successfully implement a centralized solution. As a party they have preached a "government is evil" theme since at least the days of Ronald Reagan, and simply do not see the government as a solution to any problem or crisis. I do think the Democrats, as a party that has more faith and trust in government, would be handling all this better, and I would argue that a number of Democratic governors, including NC's own Roy Cooper, have done a good job in managing all this, or at least certainly done better than some of their GOP counterparts. In short, I do have faith that an Obama or Bill Clinton-type would do much better than a Trump or George W. Bush in implementing a national response to this crisis. You appear to disagree, so carry on.
 
tiltdeac said:
Best data we have right now is the icnarc for the UK. Roughly 50% mortality if you are on a vent at any time from Covid, closer to 65% if need a vent in the first 24 hours of critical care. Check figure 12 in the pdf of that link.

https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports
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Save for the fact the UK on reported cases is currently checking in at more than a 10% death rate. Some of that is no doubt due to crap testing rates there. But it is still higher than US states with poor testing rates relative to the rest of the country. Like so many other things with this virus I think we'll patch together things as we gain more experience. So many variables at play. But that's certainly better than 80%, especially in a nation with a lower death rate on reported cases.
 
IHME predicted deaths in Italy to fall significantly April 10-11 (616 total; high end of range 931)

Actual deaths in Italy over those two days: 1,189
 
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