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Cuba

Fidel is just a used up failed communist leader. I don't really see the threat. Likely not nearly as dangerous as Putin.

He does not have minions hollering "Allah Akbar".

Make peace. Allow trade. Be a good neighbor.
 
He's a hateable symbol for the olds. That's about it.
 
There's a long list of mass murderers. Several who have allied with the US.
 
Not many who killed the relatives of our citizens who got here via floating tires
 
PhDeac said:
There's a long list of mass murderers. Several who have allied with the US.
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So your argument is that because there is a long list of mass murderers, Fidel Castro shouldn't be punished? And his mass murders should be ignored because he's just a memory for olds? Good thinking.
 
but in your mind we should punish an entire nation of people for the crimes of one dude
 
We have normalized relations with a lot of countries led by mass murderers. It does not mean we condone their actions. It means that the only way we can effect regime change is with our military. If we are not going to do that (and we shouldn't), then we have to see what are the most effective ways we can encourage positive change. History has shown that a permanent embargo will not make Castro cry uncle. Anyone who thought that it would has not studied a lot of history. Look at what semi-free trade has done to China and Russia. This trade embargo should have ended 50 years ago. As much as we may wish it were different, the US cannot chose the form of government that other countries have. If enough Cubans want to overthrow Castro, they will do it. Until that time, we should treat them the same way we do other nations with whom we have vast differences in how we view government and human rights.
 
if only RJ were here to make a comment re: war crimes and national leaders
 
RJ may be on a Hanukkah break. Happy Hanukkah, RJ!

In his absence let me point out that Cuba is also free to encourage the US to punish its own malefactors, who ever they might be. And as far as I know, they have certainly done so in the past.
 
8x Deac weighing in, but I've got to think the original Kennedy era embargo had more to do with Eisenhower/Kennedy attempt at Castro's life that ultimately lead to Kennedy's assassination at the hands of Castro/the Mafia (kind of like 43's going to war with Iraq to avenge Hussein's death threat against 41 (but I love a good conspiracy theory)).
What I find fascinating is how the "normalizing" of relations with Cuba impacts friends of Bush/Clinton/Bush/Obama (and I'll throw Reagan and Dole in there for good measure) more than those Cuban-Americans who hold titles to land/assets in Cuba that were seized by the communists.
#8xDeac
 
FuckmouthedRube said:
There's not much polling on it yet, but earlier polling supports LaBatard's position. 48% of Cuban-Americans support ending he Embargo and it's greatly favored by younger people. People over 65 are greatly opposed. If there's barely a majority in favor of continuing the Embargo among Cuban-American, what are the numbers nationwide? Like marriage equality and legalizing marijuana, conservatives can only hold out so long supporting policies that are declining in popularity and favoring older voters over younger voters is an inherently losing proposition for the future.
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Yes, but the GOP line would change in a couple years anyway with the death of both Fidel and his brother. It's not a big surprise that younger Cubans who grew up in the US would not really give a shit about the entire thing.

And it's all about politics anyway. Safe move by Obama, as he is (1) a lame duck, and (2) probably not going to hurt Dems in Florida with the move.

I'm rather "meh" about the whole thing. I understand wanting to keep the status quo in place, and I also wonder how much good it does when no other western countries have the same thing in place. There's something good to be said about sticking to your guns until they both croak.

It will be interesting to see how this affects immigration policy regarding Cuban refugees in both the short and long term. They get green cards if they set foot on Florida and have for several years now. I don't see that lasting, particularly if it doesn't favor either party.
 
EatLeadCommie said:
It will be interesting to see how this affects immigration policy regarding Cuban refugees in both the short and long term. They get green cards if they set foot on Florida and have for several years now. I don't see that lasting, particularly if it doesn't favor either party.
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Yeah, don't get how the GOP thinks Rubio or Cruz are going to fix their "Latino problem" when immigration policy for Cubans is so different than policy for people from Central America and the rest of the Caribbean. Kinda like thinking Palin was going to pick up Hillary voters.
 
sailordeac said:
We should encourage them to do the right thing, hang the mass murderer.
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I'd like to believe you are smarter than this but I am not sure. It is sheer fantasy. It shows you are more concerned with petty vindictiveness and fighting ideological battles long decided that you would seek to make life unbearable for the common person of Cuba... to what end? You think when the average Cuban is starving he/she is going to blame Castro or the U.S.? That person is not going to turn around and welcome the U.S. and I wouldn't expect them to. We can achieve our goal of a liberalized Cuba more effectively by engaging them than isolating them. As for Castro's crimes, I understand where some of you are coming from but let's be real, the U.S. is not God. I am not concerned with punishing Castro. I am a realist and I am concerned with what policy benefits the U.S.
 
I think you misunderstood my post, so let me try to clarify.

1. Please note, I am not asking for the US to punish the leaders of Cuban totalitarianism. I am saying that the Cubans would be much better off in the long run if they did so. Hanging Fidel Castro was meant to be just a succinct way of saying that. De-nazification did not harm Germany but helped it. In the former Communist states of Eastern Europe de-commiefication, if you will, was considerably less extensive than de-nazification in Germany, and the result - including the offense to people's normal sense of justice - has greatly hurt these countries socially, economically, politically and psychologically. The Cubans would be best off bringing the leading perpetrators of totalitarianism to justice and doing so as soon as possible.

2. No, I don't have any illusions that the Cubans will do the right thing and punish their oppressors, but that does not mean they shouldn't.

3. The American experience - and Americans can consider themselves fortunate in this regard - has been so different from the experiences of people who have lived under totalitarian regimes for decades, or perhaps their entire lives, that most Americans have enormous difficulty understanding the long-term pervasive damage caused by and the consequences of these regimes. Revenge has nothing to do with wanting to punish the leaders of totalitarian systems, a healthy and necessary sense of justice does, and so does a clear understanding of the long-term common good.

4. I also have few illusions about what the US will do if commercial opportunities open up in Cuba. No doubt there will be some Americans who will go to Cuba in order to enrich themselves, and many will be not too choosy about the methods they employ. And guess what? They will find there many well-placed communist officials who - for some corrupt money - will be more than happy to help them. This helps the American businessman make lots of money, and it will help the communist keep power - financial, political, or both. Hey, what great guys these former communists or beneficiaries of the totalitarian regime, now calling themselves liberals or social democrats (liberalism has proven to be such a great half-way house, or cover story, for those abandoning the sinking ship of communism) are. They are true democrats and love America! As for most Cubans, they will continue to be victimized. They will not know how to live with the possibilities and difficult choices that freedom provides and no one will protect them from the consequences.
 
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