Danny Manning Credibility Watch

[RaleighTriad]

People need to fucking relax.

1. Even if Manning goes 8-22 or whatever, it’s not clear that it really makes sense to fire him at this point. Only way would be for Wellman to “retire” effective Jan. 1 and get a new AD hired to conduct a search in March. That simply isn’t going to happen.

2. Unlike our last coach, Manning is a pleasant guy to be around and is well respected in the basketball community. That, combined with #1, are reason enough to give him at least one more year, even if you are convinced he sucks.

3. Way too much fucking #eyetest going on here. Just based on results the rebuild was on about the best track we could have hoped for (don’t make me go dig up the Tony Bennett charts please, just trust me) until 10 days ago. I honestly don’t give a shit if he’s not running the best system or making the best in game coaching decisions. I just care how good the team is and ultimately that’s what I judge him on. At the end of the season.


TL: DR version: either he turns it around and y’all look like idiots again or he doesn’t but we have to give him another year anyway.

Based on a recruiting class?

 

[RChildress107]

Of course we will give him another year whether or not he turns it around. What I’m debating is whether or not he’s going to.

Cool. And your past evidence for how Manning handles a talented team that is performing far below its potential is . . .? Or how he will handle a team with top level talent across the board . . .?

It’s one thing to call these first five games a fucking embarrassment, discuss why they might have happened and how Manning could fix things, and even suggest he should be fired if he can’t turn it around this year or deliver in a BIG way next year. It’s quite another to pretend you have any idea whether he will turn it around or not.

 

[DeacDaddy]

Cool. And your past evidence for how Manning handles a talented team that is performing far below its potential is . . .? Or how he will handle a team with top level talent across the board . . .?

It’s one thing to call these first five games a fucking embarrassment, discuss why they might have happened and how Manning could fix things, and even suggest he should be fired if he can’t turn it around this year or deliver in a BIG way next year. It’s quite another to pretend you have any idea whether he will turn it around or not.

Given your vehement defense of him last year, followed by nearly unprecedented losses to begin this year, I’ve simply been surprised at how readily you’re already calling those with a different opinion idiots.

 

[Why the Deac Not]

People need to fucking relax.

RChill told me to relax so I better take a chill pill, have a Coke and shut the fuck up! ;-)

Duly noted sagacious sir. I shall stop bitching and moaning on a message board because this is a forum for only informational, factual posts only. Why bother discussing this at all as we're certainly not astute enough as laymen to understand the subtleties and finer points of the game....hahaha

The dude can't even implement a god damn zone!! In college. Using 5 players whose height ranges from 6' 3" to 7' 1". That. Is. Pathetic.

And if you recruited these players because you thought they'd fit the way you prefer to play (M2M and PnR offense), then you are failing by any quantitative measure because, save for one year with the eventual NBA Rookie of the Year, you have pretty much failed to win and perform effectively using your preferred tactics. I've tried to be patient and take a wait and see approach, but it's more of the same stupid shit, over and over and over. We can win with talent when we have it (barely), but we can't seem to lose the "right way." It's usually because we keep doing the same things that cause us to lose repeatedly. I just don't buy the lack of talent argument and that you can only win 18+ games when you have the right players in place.

I'm not saying we should fire him, but he will probably get a 5th "prove it to us" year as a pragmatic measure to ensure we keep our 2018 recruiting class. But I foresee more losing next year as we transition again after BC and Key (not saying they should go pro but I'm fully prepared for this eventuality) defect to pro ball somewhere in Europe or Asia. So all of the "it's too early to tell" crowd will have more convenient excuses next year when we miss the tourney (cuz that seems to be the consensus as our ceiling next year) due to DM's inability to do the things I itemized above.

I think you just hope to Ed Christman, and all that is holy, that you can hold onto the talent you have after the 2018-19 season when you may face the reality that it's time to move on from Manning and to a proven veteran coach, or rising star who has had 2 or 3 years of proven success at a mid-major, who can maximize his team's potential.

 

[RChildress107]

Based on a recruiting class?

Nah based on Wellman’s/the program’s recent history. As fans, under no circumstances should we be advocating for a coaching change if Wellman is making the next hire. I would rather see Manning struggle through the next two years hoping he makes it through the other side a better coach than let Wellman roll the dice again from an even worse position.

But also based on the recruiting class, but not in the way you would think. You don’t keep a coach just to keep a recruiting class (the first mistake Wellman made with Dino), but you don’t fire a coach on the early side if he has a good recruiting class coming in (the second mistake Wellman made with Dino).

If Manning is actually a bad coach then we will suck next year, even with all that talent, and no one, least of all the fan base, will be able to argue that we didn’t give Manning a fair shot. Yeah it’s a waste of a year but it puts us in a much better position when hiring a new coach.

 

[Demonbeck]

Time for the Wake Athletic Department to take you and yours out for a steak dinner. Get you back on their side.

 

[RChildress107]

Given your vehement defense of him last year, followed by nearly unprecedented losses to begin this year, I’ve simply been surprised at how readily you’re already calling those with a different opinion idiots.

Where did I call anyone an idiot?

My defense of him last year turned out to be accurate. My argument then was the same as my argument now: stop overreacting after each and every game, take the long view of the program and it’s progress, and rely on data, not your gut, to evaluate his results as a coach.

You won’t see me defending the last 5 games. But it’s also too small of a sample size to change my overall opinion: which has consistently been “we are headed in the right direction but are still in what was a very deep hole. I have some question marks about Manning’s top end coaching ability but for now I just want to get out of this hole.”

If we are at 6-6 come ACC play and go 2-7 in the front half my opinion will likely change. 5 shitty games just isn’t enough data to negate the overall trend.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

Given your vehement defense of him last year, followed by nearly unprecedented losses to begin this year, I’ve simply been surprised at how readily you’re already calling those with a different opinion idiots.

Well, to be completely fair, he (and myself) called a lot of people idiots last year for wanting manning gone already and ended up being right by season’s end so...

 

[DeacDaddy]

LOL. Congrats on being consistently miserable.

“Those posters” would have a little more credibility if they didn’t have the exact same :willynilly::willynilly::circlejerk: last year.

You edited this post and removed the word idiot.

 

[DeacDaddy]

Well, to be completely fair, he (and myself) called a lot of people idiots last year for wanting manning gone already and ended up being right by season’s end so...

I wasn’t calling for Manning to be fired last year. What I’ve been saying is that he is not the long-term solution for us, and at the first time we have to decide whether we should extend him, I think the smart decision will be to move on.

And yes, rchildress thinking he is above calling someone idiot shows his general level of self-awareness.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

I wasn’t calling for Manning to be fired last year. What I’ve been saying is that he is not the long-term solution for us, and at the first time we have to decide whether we should extend him, I think the smart decision will be to move on.

And yes, rchildress thinking he is above calling someone idiot shows his general level of self-awareness.

I wasn’t talking about you in particular, I honestly don’t even remember who I debated Manning with last year outside racer (who came back to the boards to post after a long hiatus - during successful stints - now that the team is doing poorly. Seems strange, no?) I’m still on board with Manning. He had no idea he’d be needing to bring in a big man with the recruiting class for ‘17 and didn’t know he had to bring in a grad transfer until VERY late (after Dinos unexpectedly left) and Thompson was the best on the market. I do have a couple points though:

Per defense, being 6’3 - 7’0 is not important. Chaundee, Craw, Melo, and Doral should be good defenders naturally. Wilbekin, Chill, Key, Thompson all lack some form of size/athleticism to be good defenders without a “want-to” and fundamentals. Chill is the only one of the four who seems to have both to an extent. One would think you wouldn’t have to coach “want-to” and fundamentals in the acc but looks like Manning will.

Saying Manning doesn’t seem to care in his postgame pressers is just stupid and inaccurate. Watch the post game presser for Drake and tell me the guy isn’t pissed.

Also, listen to Key after the Liberty game re: rebounding. He says that rebounding is entirely want-to and effort and they aren’t putting in the effort at all. Not sure why that’s Manning’s fault. Losing Dinos late was massive as that’s 30+ minutes and a lot of rebounding we have to make up for.

 

[Kory]

2. Unlike our last coach, Manning is a pleasant guy to be around and is well respected in the basketball community. That, combined with #1, are reason enough to give him at least one more year, even if you are convinced he sucks.

Wasn't Bazducklick a well respected coach outside WF, esp. pre-WF?

 

[RaleighTriad]

I wasn’t talking about you in particular, I honestly don’t even remember who I debated Manning with last year outside racer (who came back to the boards to post after a long hiatus - during successful stints - now that the team is doing poorly. Seems strange, no?) I’m still on board with Manning. He had no idea he’d be needing to bring in a big man with the recruiting class for ‘17 and didn’t know he had to bring in a grad transfer until VERY late (after Dinos unexpectedly left) and Thompson was the best on the market. I do have a couple points though:

Per defense, being 6’3 - 7’0 is not important. Chaundee, Craw, Melo, and Doral should be good defenders naturally. Wilbekin, Chill, Key, Thompson all lack some form of size/athleticism to be good defenders without a “want-to” and fundamentals. Chill is the only one of the four who seems to have both to an extent. One would think you wouldn’t have to coach “want-to” and fundamentals in the acc but looks like Manning will.

Saying Manning doesn’t seem to care in his postgame pressers is just stupid and inaccurate. Watch the post game presser for Drake and tell me the guy isn’t pissed.

Also, listen to Key after the Liberty game re: rebounding. He says that rebounding is entirely want-to and effort and they aren’t putting in the effort at all. Not sure why that’s Manning’s fault. Losing Dinos late was massive as that’s 30+ minutes and a lot of rebounding we have to make up for.

We expected to lose Collins, but we all thought Dinos was going to be here. To be honest, I am sick of being angry at Danny since Wellman is the reason we are even in this position.

Think about this:

- Hire Dino to keep recruiting class.
- Fire Dino for lack of winning in March.
- Hire [NAME REDACTED] and claim he is the savior!
- Fire [NAME REDACTED] and have this kind of press conference:

When asked how he can convince the fan base that this is not a program in disarray, Mr. Wellman paused for several seconds before replying, "that's a good question Dan (Collins), and I think that each fan has to dig deep to determine/make that decision."

- Wellman misses out on everyone.
- Wellman panic hires Danny Manning because he is a big name with pedigree, but lacks success on the court.
- Wellman hopes that Manning can learn on the job but as of 11/20/17, Manning is 44-56 (.44) overall and 16–38 (.296) in the ACC at Wake Forest.

Unfortunately, I can see the last 3 parts being repeated over and over again as long as Wellman is making the decisions regarding basketball.

 

[RChildress107]

RChill told me to relax so I better take a chill pill, have a Coke and shut the fuck up! ;-)

Duly noted sagacious sir. I shall stop bitching and moaning on a message board because this is a forum for only informational, factual posts only. Why bother discussing this at all as we're certainly not astute enough as laymen to understand the subtleties and finer points of the game....hahaha

The dude can't even implement a god damn zone!! In college. Using 5 players whose height ranges from 6' 3" to 7' 1". That. Is. Pathetic.

And if you recruited these players because you thought they'd fit the way you prefer to play (M2M and PnR offense), then you are failing by any quantitative measure because, save for one year with the eventual NBA Rookie of the Year, you have pretty much failed to win and perform effectively using your preferred tactics. I've tried to be patient and take a wait and see approach, but it's more of the same stupid shit, over and over and over. We can win with talent when we have it (barely), but we can't seem to lose the "right way." It's usually because we keep doing the same things that cause us to lose repeatedly. I just don't buy the lack of talent argument and that you can only win 18+ games when you have the right players in place.

I'm not saying we should fire him, but he will probably get a 5th "prove it to us" year as a pragmatic measure to ensure we keep our 2018 recruiting class. But I foresee more losing next year as we transition again after BC and Key (not saying they should go pro but I'm fully prepared for this eventuality) defect to pro ball somewhere in Europe or Asia. So all of the "it's too early to tell" crowd will have more convenient excuses next year when we miss the tourney (cuz that seems to be the consensus as our ceiling next year) due to DM's inability to do the things I itemized above.

I think you just hope to Ed Christman, and all that is holy, that you can hold onto the talent you have after the 2018-19 season when you may face the reality that it's time to move on from Manning and to a proven veteran coach, or rising star who has had 2 or 3 years of proven success at a mid-major, who can maximize his team's potential.

Who recruited and developed the eventual 5th place finisher in the NBA Rookie of the year race? We should just hire that guy instead. I’m shocked to find out that we win when we have talent and lose “the wrong way” when we don’t.

 

[RChildress107]

Wasn't Bazducklick a well respected coach outside WF, esp. pre-WF?

No.

 

[RChildress107]

You edited this post and removed the word idiot.

No I didn’t. That post originally just said “LOL.” and then I edited it to include the rest.

 

[RChildress107]

I wasn’t calling for Manning to be fired last year. What I’ve been saying is that he is not the long-term solution for us, and at the first time we have to decide whether we should extend him, I think the smart decision will be to move on.

And yes, rchildress thinking he is above calling someone idiot shows his general level of self-awareness.

I’m clearly not above calling people idiots, I just haven’t done so during this discussion. Idiotic isn’t the right word.

It’s not idiotic to think Manning isn’t the long term solution, and that’s actually a slightly stronger position than it was ten days ago. It’s still a position relatively short on hard evidence and it’s also not that interesting/relevant of a discussion.

I’m realistic in realizing that Danny Manning probably isn’t going to win a national championship while he is here. I’m also realistic in realizing he has already taken this program on several necessary steps towards that ultimate goal and has a decent chance to take a few more.

The chances we were going to follow up [name redacted] with our own Coach K were always slim. Manning will almost certainly reach a point here where he is no longer the right guy to move us forward (almost all coaches do). However, I haven’t seen any evidence, outside the last 5 days, that we are anywhere close to that point.

 

[knowell]

If defense were not a huge problem EVERY year, then there might be a chance that Manning could figure this thing out.

Defense and to a slightly lesser extent rebounding have been below any basic standard for a power 5 team.

Nothing else really matters if you can't fix that. You will never shoot your way into a final 4 in college.

These problems were evident last year as well and cost quite a few games.

Lipstick ain't gonna help that pig.

 

[DCDeac]

We were 4th in the ACC in rebounding last year.

 

[birdman]

Nah based on Wellman’s/the program’s recent history. As fans, under no circumstances should we be advocating for a coaching change if Wellman is making the next hire. I would rather see Manning struggle through the next two years hoping he makes it through the other side a better coach than let Wellman roll the dice again from an even worse position.

But also based on the recruiting class, but not in the way you would think. You don’t keep a coach just to keep a recruiting class (the first mistake Wellman made with Dino), but you don’t fire a coach on the early side if he has a good recruiting class coming in (the second mistake Wellman made with Dino).

If Manning is actually a bad coach then we will suck next year, even with all that talent, and no one, least of all the fan base, will be able to argue that we didn’t give Manning a fair shot. Yeah it’s a waste of a year but it puts us in a much better position when hiring a new coach.

It is absolutely correct that Wellman should not be hiring our next basketball coach. He is 1 and 3 in that department. Though, that’s actually a better record than our BBall team this year, so it seems more likely that Wellman would make a good hire than Manning can turn this season around.