Danny Manning Credibility Watch

[donaldross]

People used to think that Jeff Lebo or Buzz Peterson were going to get the UNC job after Dean retired. Ooops.

Hell, UNC did hire Matt Doherty, who was a ripe 38 years old with a much better resume than Wes Miller had. Can somebody remind me how that turned out?

Turned out great for Carolina. When it was obvious he wasn’t the answer, they had the balls to pull the plug. We sit around and kill half a decade when that happens to us.

 

[RChildress107]

This is where we fundamentally disagree. Not just any 28 year old should be hired. But if you have a 28/33 year old who you know and has been a WF fan for life, wanted to attend WF, went on to win a national championship when we wouldn't let him walk on. Hired by Ernie Nestor because of his Wake Forest ties. Is committed to WF as a destination job (unlike a Manning type hire) & you know--since Wellman should have been interacting regularly with his family and him for 2 decades--that he is smart as a whip and well liked by recruits and well respected throughout the industry. Doesn't need the money and you can get the deal done at a fair, fair price.

When you have that amazing Theo Epstein, Dean Smith type recipe: you pull the trigger and try and win for 5 decades with him. Instead, we wasted a decade. We could have had him building for that decade and patiently as his reputation exponentially grew like it did with K & Knight & Smith as the decades went by.

That all sounds great until you realize he’s lost more games than he’s won. I was honestly shocked to find that out today. I knew you were overhyping him but I figured his win percentage would be at least around 60% for you to seriously suggest he should get a P5 coaching job.

Literally worse than [Redacted].

 

[tigerswood]

Turned out great for Carolina. When it was obvious he wasn’t the answer, they had the balls to pull the plug. We sit around and kill half a decade when that happens to us.

You contradict yourself all the time. In your Wes Miller at Wake hypothetical, you advocated "patiently waiting" for success/development/reputation building. You also tout "once in a generation hires" like K and Smith who were hung in effigy because of lack of early success. What if they "pulled the plug" on them?

How was it "obvious" that they were home run hires and not Doherty? Perhaps you forget that Doh recruited a top 5 class of all time (some called it the best) for Roy?

 

[DeaconSig]

Turned out great for Carolina. When it was obvious he wasn’t the answer, they had the balls to pull the plug. We sit around and kill half a decade when that happens to us.

Gaudio received 3 seasons at Wake. [Redacted] received 4 seasons. Doherty received 3.

 

[RJKarl]

I don't think Wojo could go Wake to Duke. That was my conclusion. Same with Miller in terms of UNC. They get a winning consistent presence at Wake, they don't get that job. I think there is now a strong likelihood that at lease one of them will lead their respective schools the next go round--maybe both.

You know how it works. If a coach isn't precluded from taking X job or in Y conference contractually, all's fair. If Wojo was stopped by his contract from going to Duke, then he would likely not take the Wake job.

 

[macktheknife]

Ease up on the olds you bastards. Could have outcoached [name redacted ] in my late fifties and still could.

 

[knowell]

DR is advocating for a higher risk high reward approach that I think has merit. If Wake hires the unproven young coach the upside of an historic legacy is there. Hiring a 50 year old coach has a lower ceiling.

On the face of it, K's resume was pretty thin but there were a lot of people in the business that thought highly of him.

DR is advocating finding the potential gem prior there being evidence of the luster.

I tend to think this may be the best chance Wake has to achieve the highest level of success. There would also be a pretty high likelihood of complete failure as well. I think you would have to be committed to moving on quickly if the long shot (less than 40%) does not work out.

The biggest problem with this is assuming that Wellman has any chance of recognizing talent.

 

[ConnorEl]

Truly this has become a fan credibility watch more than anything else...

 

[macktheknife]

Manning and Coach K have similar records in their first four years at Wake and Duke. Took Ratface four years to get to the NCAA. Took Manning three. So far Manning is still on track to succeed. And Manning is not an asshole.

 

[donaldross]

The difference is those in the know in basketball circles who actually watch these guys on the sidelines and talk to them day in and day out knew very quickly that Doherty was going to fail. He told some at UNC he didn't recruit Chris Paul because he was too short. He said he wouldn't want to recruit LeBron because he didn't know which position he would play.

When he arrived the basketball folks at UNC were honest with themselves after a short few years.

 

[macktheknife]

Tons of Dukies wanted to fire Coaxh K, and could have made a case for it. He went backwards for two years after his first year. They've erased all that history as UNC did with GodDean after they wanted to run him off. Both would have been gone under some of the rhetoric here today.

 

[canadiandeac]

The difference is those in the know in basketball circles who actually watch these guys on the sidelines and talk to them day in and day out knew very quickly that Doherty was going to fail. He told some at UNC he didn't recruit Chris Paul because he was too short. He said he wouldn't want to recruit LeBron because he didn't know which position he would play.


When he arrived the basketball folks at UNC were honest with themselves after a short few years.

The last time your "in the know" connections were bragged about...you were arguing for elrod....

 

[donaldross]

The last time your "in the know" connections were bragged about...you were arguing for elrod....

Where do you people get that? I was critical of Wake for not telling us what happened. Still am. Destroyed a respected man's career with a press release than Ron ran away and hid. Not cool.

Also attacked Ron for hiring him and doing the typical Ron thing and not interacting with folks enough to Elrod was bashing us.

Logically, those 2 positions have nothing to do with "arguing for Elrod."

 

[canadiandeac]

Where do you people get that? I was critical of Wake for not telling us what happened. Still am. Destroyed a respected man's career with a press release than Ron ran away and hid. Not cool.

Also attacked Ron for hiring him and doing the typical Ron thing and not interacting with folks enough to Elrod was bashing us.

Logically, those 2 positions have nothing to do with "arguing for Elrod."

you apparently are/were really close to him. and would argue that the news coming out was not and could not be the truth. at least thats how it came off...and it was blatantly horrible what elrod did. no reasonable fan can say otherwise.

now you have this miller take, i hope he does succeed, but it wont be at Wake. Danny is our guy, he just needs the pieces in place.

edit to add:
it was obvious what happened. to everyone but you apparently. the guy wanted to get back at wake.he did a great job of it. other teams coaches even said so

 

[BlackjackMc]

DR, the problem with your opinions regarding Wes Miller and the Joel is simple. Ron Wellman. Debating the strength of your opinions on OGB won't enable them to become reality. Debating them with Ron Wellman might achieve your objectives. Who knows? He might tire of your persistence and resign, thereby immortalizing you in Wake Forest sports history.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

Can we just delete this thread? It sucks bigly

ETA: or at least rename it the Wes Miller Credibility Watch Thread. Would be more accurate

 

[DeaconSig]

The difference is those in the know in basketball circles who actually watch these guys on the sidelines and talk to them day in and day out knew very quickly that Doherty was going to fail. He told some at UNC he didn't recruit Chris Paul because he was too short. He said he wouldn't want to recruit LeBron because he didn't know which position he would play.

When he arrived the basketball folks at UNC were honest with themselves after a short few years.

1 year less than Wake took with [Redacted]. Same amount of time as Wake with Gaudio.
Your argument fails on its face, counselor. Go in a different direction.

 

[donaldross]

you apparently are/were really close to him. and would argue that the news coming out was not and could not be the truth. at least thats how it came off...and it was blatantly horrible what elrod did. no reasonable fan can say otherwise.

now you have this miller take, i hope he does succeed, but it wont be at Wake. Danny is our guy, he just needs the pieces in place.

edit to add:
it was obvious what happened. to everyone but you apparently. the guy wanted to get back at wake.he did a great job of it. other teams coaches even said so

And my comments changed after they did so. My comment before that was: wait. Show us the goods.

My position NOW on Miller? Can’t be serious. I was advocating for this 7 years ago.

 

[RChildress107]

DR is advocating for a higher risk high reward approach that I think has merit. If Wake hires the unproven young coach the upside of an historic legacy is there. Hiring a 50 year old coach has a lower ceiling.

On the face of it, K's resume was pretty thin but there were a lot of people in the business that thought highly of him.

DR is advocating finding the potential gem prior there being evidence of the luster.

I tend to think this may be the best chance Wake has to achieve the highest level of success. There would also be a pretty high likelihood of complete failure as well. I think you would have to be committed to moving on quickly if the long shot (less than 40%) does not work out.

The biggest problem with this is assuming that Wellman has any chance of recognizing talent.

This simply isn’t true. Looking at the current top 10, the average starting age (at their current school) was 46.3. The average win percentage of those coaches at their previous stop was .67.

Can anyone find an example of a 35 year old coach with a career losing record at his previous stop that ended up becoming a legend at a P5 school?

 

[Rafi]

This is where we fundamentally disagree. Not just any 28 year old should be hired. But if you have a 28/33 year old who you know and has been a WF fan for life, wanted to attend WF, went on to win a national championship when we wouldn't let him walk on. Hired by Ernie Nestor because of his Wake Forest ties. Is committed to WF as a destination job (unlike a Manning type hire) & you know--since Wellman should have been interacting regularly with his family and him for 2 decades--that he is smart as a whip and well liked by recruits and well respected throughout the industry. Doesn't need the money and you can get the deal done at a fair, fair price.

Those are your criteria? You don't even mention wins and losses. If you're going to use such soft, touchy feely criteria then I'm surprised you aren't advocating for Childress: Wake grad, all ACC, all American, two time ACC champ, good recruiter, knows the ACC, knows coaching in the ACC, played in the NBA, sent his son to Wake, proven winner. I prefer more objective criteria myself.