Danny Manning Credibility Watch

[donaldross]

It would have been completely asinine to hire Wes Miller given his resume. There is no "damage control".

I don't care if he does well, Wake Forest should never, ever, ever hire a coach with the resume that Miller had.

This is where we fundamentally disagree. Not just any 28 year old should be hired. But if you have a 28/33 year old who you know and has been a WF fan for life, wanted to attend WF, went on to win a national championship when we wouldn't let him walk on. Hired by Ernie Nestor because of his Wake Forest ties. Is committed to WF as a destination job (unlike a Manning type hire) & you know--since Wellman should have been interacting regularly with his family and him for 2 decades--that he is smart as a whip and well liked by recruits and well respected throughout the industry. Doesn't need the money and you can get the deal done at a fair, fair price.

When you have that amazing Theo Epstein, Dean Smith type recipe: you pull the trigger and try and win for 5 decades with him. Instead, we wasted a decade. We could have had him building for that decade and patiently as his reputation exponentially grew like it did with K & Knight & Smith as the decades went by.

 

[RJKarl]

There's no reason to say Manning doesn't have Wake as a destination job. He could have been an NBA coach by now if he had wanted that. The only other "destination" he has been involved with has coach who is basically Danny's age and has turned down pro offers. Danny has ties to the area.

There was NO reason to hire a 24 YO with NO experience WHATSOEVER which is what Wes was when we made Dino HC. The only post on the sports boards that even comes close to being as moronic as hiring a 24 yo with ZERO coaching experience is when a poster couldn't understand why there seemed to be an open man when we double teamed someone on defense.

When we hired BZZZZZ, Wes had one year as an assistant at each of Elon and High Point. Again ZERO experience as a head coach. He might have been qualified to be a #3 assistant at Wake at that time. To think, he should have been hired at that time is only slightly less moronic.

When we hired Danny. Wes has had just finished coming in 6th and 6th in the Southern Conference over his past years. Talk about LOWF!

 

[donaldross]

On this thread today I have been called "moronic" and "asinine." And then people get upset when I point out my place in life in response to such personal attacks.

 

[Deacsfan27]

On this thread today I have been called "moronic" and "asinine." And then people get upset when I point out my place in life in response to such personal attacks.

I didn't call you "asinine" DR. I said that it would have been a "remarkably asinine" move to hire Wes Miller after Dino Gaudio was fired/let go.

 

[RJKarl]

On this thread today I have been called "moronic" and "asinine." And then people get upset when I point out my place in life in response to such personal attacks.

The idea is moronic not you. There could be many other ideas you have that are fine or even brilliant, but not this one.

 

[donaldross]

Do you people buy residential rental real estate in your 50s? Try and conceive children in your 60s? Hire 70 year old lawyers?

There is an incubator for greatness in the college basketball coaching profession and it is demonstrated with a list of the greatest ever. And that range is late 20s-age 40. Thereafter, a school like WF has no chance to get over the hump and then sustainably maintaining it. That should be the goal. A 50 year run. All the classic hires (Knight, Smith, K, Wooden) were made because great schools had great vision and inside information about the one they were hiring, both with regard to the quality of the Coach and his commitment to that University. Wake Forest had that with Wes Miller. We also had that with with Russell Turner, Wojo, & Kelsey. All are great, great young coaches and we knew that if we had been paying attention.

Instead we go hire Manning. I can't imagine Ron watched a single game tape on this guy. The worst part about the whole thing is if he would have turned out great, he's gone. Wojo type hire is ours for the keeping.

 

[wakelaw13]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say a large majority of the board agrees that Wake should have hired Wes Miller instead of Manning. (I think it's pretty obvious this is a hypothetical question because no one agrees with that except DR.) What then, donaldross? What do you propose we do?

You've spent a considerable amount of time and effort trying to convince a handful of people on this message board that Wake should have hired your friend. I guess I'm confused, and genuinely interested, to know why.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Do you people buy residential rental real estate in your 50s? Try and conceive children in your 60s? Hire 70 year old lawyers?

There is an incubator for greatness in the college basketball coaching profession and it is demonstrated with a list of the greatest ever. And that range is late 20s-age 40. Thereafter, a school like WF has no chance to get over the hump and then sustainably maintaining it. That should be the goal. A 50 year run. All the classic hires (Knight, Smith, K, Wooden) were made because great schools had great vision and inside information about the one they were hiring, both with regard to the quality of the Coach and his commitment to that University. Wake Forest had that with Wes Miller. We also had that with with Russell Turner, Wojo, & Kelsey. All are great, great young coaches and we knew that if we had been paying attention.

Instead we go hire Manning. I can't imagine Ron watched a single game tape on this guy. The worst part about the whole thing is if he would have turned out great, he's gone. Wojo type hire is ours for the keeping.

I understand where you're coming from and can really appreciate your conviction regarding this stance.

You lose me when you compare our situation to the greatest coaches of all time. You're talking once in 50 year coaches. If it were that simple, everyone would follow your model.

Also, Manning isn't a failed experiment or anything. He's in the process of elevating our recruiting to Skip levels. And your theory that if Manning turned out great, he'd be gone, is simply speculation on your part. I think there are a lot of folks like you who have some inside scoop and keep a pulse on the program. Everything I've heard since day 1 is that Manning wants to move his kids here, he loves it here and he isn't going to jump anywhere unless a blue blood school comes knocking.

Again, I really do appreciate the fervor, but you simply post your speculation and your opinions and your feelings. Let's all take a step back and see how this thing shakes out. What happens when Manning brings us to a couple sweet 16s in the next 3-5 years. Do you take back everything?

 

[donaldross]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say a large majority of the board agrees that Wake should have hired Wes Miller instead of Manning. (I think it's pretty obvious this is a hypothetical question because no one agrees with that except DR.) What then, donaldross? What do you propose we do?

You've spent a considerable amount of time and effort trying to convince a handful of people on this message board that Wake should have hired your friend. I guess I'm confused, and genuinely interested, to know why.

Why what? I have spent much time the last few going painfully through the reasons.

It's obvious from watching Manning fumble basic substitution, TO, rule issues that this is going nowhere. I am not saying fire him now. But when it doesn't work, Wellman needs to have been paying attention to Miller & the others nongeriatric set.

 

[donaldross]

I understand where you're coming from and can really appreciate your conviction regarding this stance.

You lose me when you compare our situation to the greatest coaches of all time. You're talking once in 50 year coaches. If it were that simple, everyone would follow your model.

Also, Manning isn't a failed experiment or anything. He's in the process of elevating our recruiting to Skip levels. And your theory that if Manning turned out great, he'd be gone, is simply speculation on your part. I think there are a lot of folks like you who have some inside scoop and keep a pulse on the program. Everything I've heard since day 1 is that Manning wants to move his kids here, he loves it here and he isn't going to jump anywhere unless a blue blood school comes knocking.

Again, I really do appreciate the fervor, but you simply post your speculation and your opinions and your feelings. Let's all take a step back and see how this thing shakes out. What happens when Manning brings us to a couple sweet 16s in the next 3-5 years. Do you take back everything?

Answer is Yes. I admit when I'm wrong. If Manning takes us to 2 sweet 16s in the next 3-5 years I was dead wrong and we have something going. I think Wes will then succeed somewhere else but that would mean Manning was a hell of a hire. 2 sweet 16s in 5 years. That would be an Odom era run and I would be quite pleased and cry mea culpa.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Get it done, Danny.

 

[wakelaw13]

Why what? I have spent much time the last few going painfully through the reasons.

It's obvious from watching Manning fumble basic substitution, TO, rule issues that this is going nowhere. I am not saying fire him now. But when it doesn't work, Wellman needs to have been paying attention to Miller & the others nongeriatric set.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Why are you telling us. What do you want us to do about it. Why don't you go talk to Wellman. Or Hatch. I'm sure they would be honored to have you drop in for a meeting.

 

[RJKarl]

Do you people buy residential rental real estate in your 50s? Try and conceive children in your 60s? Hire 70 year old lawyers?

There is an incubator for greatness in the college basketball coaching profession and it is demonstrated with a list of the greatest ever. And that range is late 20s-age 40. Thereafter, a school like WF has no chance to get over the hump and then sustainably maintaining it. That should be the goal. A 50 year run. All the classic hires (Knight, Smith, K, Wooden) were made because great schools had great vision and inside information about the one they were hiring, both with regard to the quality of the Coach and his commitment to that University. Wake Forest had that with Wes Miller. We also had that with with Russell Turner, Wojo, & Kelsey. All are great, great young coaches and we knew that if we had been paying attention.

Instead we go hire Manning. I can't imagine Ron watched a single game tape on this guy. The worst part about the whole thing is if he would have turned out great, he's gone. Wojo type hire is ours for the keeping.

There is no reason to think he'd be gone. Other than KU, there's no place he has more ties to than the Triad. Given that Self is likely going to be a lifer there, that job won't be available.

Wojo is a leading candidate for Duke. If he succeeded at Wake, his stock would go through the roof to replace K.

After the BZZ debacle, Turner would have been the best of your list.

Kelsey was light years ahead of Wes Miller, but would have been a tough pick over Gaudio. After Gaudio, it would have been kind of weird.

 

[donaldross]

Maybe I wasn't clear. Why are you telling us. What do you want us to do about it. Why don't you go talk to Wellman. Or Hatch. I'm sure they would be honored to have you drop in for a meeting.

I have made my positions known. I'm not anonymous. What is your point? Why are you arguing with me if this board is one giant vacuum? In addition to my opinion, I need others to come to the same conclusions. Hate on me because you don't like how I advocate it. Don't hate on Miller.

 

[wtf22fan]

It must be asked: Is there like a "Peter Principle" for internet message board warriors?

Or presented to the jury, couched in different terms: Has one reached internet message board immortality by becoming a caricature of oneself?

Asking for a friend.

 

[wakelaw13]

I have made my positions known. I'm not anonymous. What is your point? Why are you arguing with me if this board is one giant vacuum? In addition to my opinion, I need others to come to the same conclusions. Hate on me because you don't like how I advocate it. Don't hate on Miller.

I'm certainly hating on the former. I also think you're taking an unrealistic position in part because you know it's so unrealistic it will never happen, so you can't be proven wrong.

 

[donaldross]

I don't think Wojo could go Wake to Duke. That was my conclusion. Same with Miller in terms of UNC. They get a winning consistent presence at Wake, they don't get that job. I think there is now a strong likelihood that at lease one of them will lead their respective schools the next go round--maybe both.

 

[scooter84]

This is where we fundamentally disagree. Not just any 28 year old should be hired. But if you have a 28/33 year old who you know and has been a WF fan for life, wanted to attend WF, went on to win a national championship when we wouldn't let him walk on. Hired by Ernie Nestor because of his Wake Forest ties. Is committed to WF as a destination job (unlike a Manning type hire) & you know--since Wellman should have been interacting regularly with his family and him for 2 decades--that he is smart as a whip and well liked by recruits and well respected throughout the industry. Doesn't need the money and you can get the deal done at a fair, fair price.

When you have that amazing Theo Epstein, Dean Smith type recipe: you pull the trigger and try and win for 5 decades with him. Instead, we wasted a decade. We could have had him building for that decade and patiently as his reputation exponentially grew like it did with K & Knight & Smith as the decades went by.

Everyone would love to hire a young coach who will stay at your school and be wildly successful. That is not a different or controversial opinion. The problem is identifying that coach. You are convinced Wes could be that guy. We don't know exactly what has convinced you but you apparently know him, have interacted with him, and have become convinced - for whatever reason. We don't know him. We have no subjective evidence to support your conclusion. So, we are forced to rely on objective evidence - the experience he has and the success he has exhibited. So far, that objective evidence does not support the conclusion that we should hire him. That is all that is going on here - you can't convince anyone here because your conclusion is based on evidence we don't have.

Maybe if we interviewed him we would all become convinced he was the real deal. Maybe if the AD interviewed him he would have a vision of him as the next Coach K. Who knows? But, until he starts wowing us with results, no one here going to be clamoring to hire him.

 

[tigerswood]

I don't think Wojo could go Wake to Duke. That was my conclusion. Same with Miller in terms of UNC. They get a winning consistent presence at Wake, they don't get that job. I think there is now a strong likelihood that at lease one of them will lead their respective schools the next go round--maybe both.

You think there is a strong likelihood that Wes Miller is going to succeed Roy at UNC? Is this real life?

 

[DeaconSig]

You think there is a strong likelihood that Wes Miller is going to succeed Roy at UNC? Is this real life?

People used to think that Jeff Lebo or Buzz Peterson were going to get the UNC job after Dean retired. Ooops.

Hell, UNC did hire Matt Doherty, who was a ripe 38 years old with a much better resume than Wes Miller had. Can somebody remind me how that turned out?